The Kurt Angle Show - Unforgiven 2005 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

John Cena has returned to the WWE and will be a big part of the upcoming Fastlane premium live event next week where he will be taking on the Bloodline of Jimmy Uso & Solo Sikoa in a 2-on-1 handicap match.

We’ve talked a lot about John in the past - but have you seen his work as recent in WWE?

Cena against the Bloodline is a big deal is it not?

Speaking of a big deal - let’s get to our topic - which is your first pay-per-view main event against John Cena - all the way back in 2005 at Unforgiven!

We’re leaving off from SummerSlam 2005 which we covered last month and your match vs Eugene. But the whole plan of moving you to Raw from SmackDown was to put you into a program with Cena isn’t it?

The Raw after SummerSlam you’re in one of the better singles matches at the time on Raw where you take on your former Team Angle mate Shelton Benjamin and defeat him in 12:50. From the Observer:

Angle beat Benjamin in a ***3/4 match.

If they had 4:00 more they'd have probably topped ****

Great wrestling and the crowd was going nuts for every near fall by the end. By the end,

Ross and Coach were arguing over a total logic disconnect. Coach started talking about how great Angle is, because he's the heel announcer, and cracked on Ross for running down Angle and saying he sucks. The problem was, being that Ross had the mentality that since Angle is getting the next title shot, not to mention that he's having this great match, he had done nothing but praise Angle the entire match. Ross then sort of brought all that up, saying he never said Angle sucks as a wrestler, and Coachman seemed to have a total disconnect like Ross isn't playing his role and he didn't know what to do next.

When you have a great match like this and the whole time the announcers are spending time fighting with each other - does that help anybody?

Is that frustrating to go back and watch the match - which is tremendous by the way and you should go find it on Peacock - and that’s the story they’re talking about?

Later on that night Chris Jericho would leave the WWE after his match with John in a “loser gets fired” match. At this point Jericho had been with the company the better part of 6 years - it was time for Chris to take a break wasn’t it?

After Cena gets the win - you come out in a deathly serious tone and destroys Cena and the Raw GM Eric Bischoff comes out and announces you as getting the next title shot. This is a much different Cena than 3 years ago when he was a rookie - how excited are you to work with John on top?

Was John looking forward to this program as well?

Did you think this was your chance to finally reclaim a top spot in the company?

Do you think the Cena - Bischoff dynamic was built off the Austin - McMahon story from years before and that’s the hope of the company?

On the road you’re working John & Shawn in some 3-way matches including in Puerto Rico - any memories of those matches or trips?

The next Raw is from Tampa and here’s the write up from the Observer:

“Angle came out and did a fantastic promo. For the first time, he's acting like a top guy 100%, with all the comedy removed. Cena called him out.

Angle teased he was coming, but backed off twice. Cena finally turned his back, and Angle was on him, but when Cena made a comeback, Angle left. The segment was much better than it reads, and did as good a job as possible in getting interest into a match people have seen many times before.”

Did you see a difference in the way you were being positioned with John?

Was that something you were pushing for?

You would bring up the National Wrestling Hall of Fame in your promo - were you contributing to your promos and the scripting at the time?

The next week on Raw from Nashville you would open the show and defeat Eugene in 4 minutes. You ate him up but the one comeback he had Eugene acted like Jim Duggan and the crowd booed. Do you think at this point Eugene was just too over exposed?

Speaking of which - did you ever get a chance to wrestle Jim Duggan? Would you had liked to have of?

Two American heroes Kurt!

Cena would do a run in after and Travis Tomko would come out and lay out John with a kick to build to a match later on…were you interested in having Tomko as a heater?

Do you think you needed Tomko?

Cena would defeat Tomko and it’s a great showing from Tomko. Did you think he would be a top guy for the WWE at some point?

As Cena was leaving - you would jump him on the ramp and give him an Angle Slam on the ramp. Two things - how bad does that ramp hurt?

Is there anyway to protect yourself when doing that?

Todd Grisham would ask you if taking cheap shots was a pattern for you and you had this to say:

Pattern? You’re damn right it’s a pattern. A pattern that proves that John Cena’s reign as WWE Champion is a farce. Week after week Cena does his chain gang. That it’s all about real seeing real. Do you wanna see real? I am the most real thing you will ever know! And anyone that watches Raw knows that Kurt Angle deserves to be the WWE Champion. And at Unforgiven, Cena – I’m going to take your ass to school. Because at Unforgiven you’re going to finally come to the realization that I am the most vicious son of a bitch in the WWE.

This is a hell of a difference in character Kurt. We’ve always been told the word real was a no-no for the WWE…do you think it meant more when someone like you said it?

The WWE on the road isn’t doing great. You would take on John Cena on a house show in Jonesboro in front of 1700 people. Did you ever expect to see crowds that size on the road for the WWE?

You had to have loved this role for yourself - you can see it in you!

From the Observer

“Main event saw Cena beat Angle & Tomko in 12:39. At least when Cena is in a handicap match he knows his role is to sell like crazy. There was a cool spot where Cena had Tomko up for the FU and Angle got behind him and gave him a German suplex. Tomko was supposed to give Angle a high kick when Cena moved. The kick wasn't too high at all, but Angle was stunned and Cena gave Tomko the FU for the pin. Post-match saw Angle lay out Cena with an Angle slam, a low blow and then wrapped his ankle around the post. He immobilized Cena while Bischoff was yelling in Cena's face as the show went off the air.”

This is a hell of a go home angle - but Tomko comes up short here. Was he still green and learning things?

The role of Cena in this match is pointed out by Meltzer and it’s important to point out - he’s come a long way from when he made the main roster. How much more of a leader and how comfortable was John at this point?

Were you proud of John?

Let’s fire up your Peacock and watch back Kurt & John’s first pay-per-view main event against each other. Unforgiven 2005!

Unforgiven - 9/18/05 from Oklahoma City:

“8. Kurt Angle beat John Cena via DQ, so Cena kept the WWE title, in 17:15.

There were a lot of negative Cena signs confiscated and you could see on camera and hear chants for Angle. Still, the kids and women oriented chants for Cena were much louder than the guys for Angle, so it wasn't the atmosphere as at SummerSlam.”

Do you hear that reaction while you’re in the ring or walking down the ramp?

Do you guys plan a match out knowing there’s a chance the crowd may reject John as the babyface?

Did you ever talk with John about that and his reaction to it?

How did he handle it?

“There was a cool spot where Angle reversed an FU attempt into an Angle Slam, but Cena kicked out. Angle went for the ankle lock, but Cena, who was selling an ankle injury from Raw, kicked his way free. Cena came back with a five knuckle shuffle for a near fall. Then we had our ref bump.”

This will lead to many more matches and in no way was this the blow off - so you needed these types of things to keep the program going right?

Do you think there was any consideration to changing the title to you on this night?

“Cena hit the FU, but no ref. Angle kicked Cena low, then wrapped his gold medal and KO'd Cena. He then put on the ankle lock while Eric Bischoff came out. Even someone like me who gives great latitude to creative license when it comes to dragging out submission holds because wrestling crowds usually get more intense the longer it's on (forget realism, if you want realism in a match, watch something real), thought this went on way too long before Cena kicked Angle into Bischoff. I mean, when you can toast bread while a guy is in a submission, and you either don't sell it as a ligament tear or a submission, that's a bit much, particularly when the story coming in was Cena having an injured ankle.”

Was this too much and too long? Did Bischoff take too long to come out? Was this a missed cue?

Do you think it hurts you when something like this happens?

“Cena then grabbed the title belt and nailed Angle, but the ref saw it and called for the DQ. Bischoff was furious, stating to the ref that even though you keep the title on a DQ, that he doesn't want Cena getting the belt back. Cena then gave Bischoff the FU. Angle jumped Cena and was beating on him. Cena came back and ended the show putting Angle through the Spanish announcers table. That was basically kissing up to the audience and giving them a big pop at the end since they weren't giving them a main event finish. ***”

Do you think it’s tough to finish a pay-per-view - not just for the crowd at home watching - but crowd live - in this way?

You can’t always have a decisive winner - but the finish here does kind of suck does it not?

“Even before the finish this match was disappointing. It wasn't nearly at the level of the Cena-Jericho matches, nor of the prior Angle- Cena matches. It was still better than 90% of the Cena matches you'll see.”

Do you think this was just you two getting used to each other again after not wrestling together for a while?

Would you two run through some of this during house shows or do you go for this being something entirely different?

How had John evolved as a worker up until this point?

It’s always been said Arn Anderson was John’s favorite agent - did Double A help John put a lot of this together?

Were you happy with it then and now watching it back?