Grilling JR - Leaving Talent Relations [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Today JR we’re talking about when you officially removed from the Head of Talent Relations.

You started as JJ Dillon’s assistant in talent relations - what did you learn from JJ?

Were there things he did you didn’t agree with?

When JJ left the WWF - how do you find out about it?

Did you think you were going to be the next man up so to speak?

You shared the role in the beginning with Bruce Prichard as he’s said in the past…is that true?

Why was it important for you to take no the role just by itself?

When you became head of talent relations in 95/96…how long did you think you would exist in that role?

You wrote in your book that you looked at building a talent relations department like a sports franchise - no one else had that thought before or after do you think?

Vince McMahon gave you full power to sign who you wanted correct?

As Vince wrote in the foreword of your book, “As head of Talent Relations, Jim proved an insightful, creative, and dedicated senior executive, signing a plethora of legendary talent during his tenure who were essential to building WWE into what it is today.”

Do you consider yourself the most successful head of talent relations for the WWE?

What made you so successful?

What were your day to day responsibilities as the head of talent relations?

Who was the easiest to deal with - top guys - while you were the head of talent relations?

Who was the hardest to deal with?

Well the story of you leaving talent relations I think begins in 2001…from your book

“I hired a guy named John Laurinaitis—or Johnny Ace, as he was known in the wrestling business—to help me out. John was working backstage in WCW—I also knew him from his time working in Japan for their top promoter, Giant Baba—and he seemed most interested in talent relations, so I hired him as my assistant.

If Vince wanted to have two companies, and two rosters, and two TVs, it would be two times the work—so I sold Vince on Johnny, as the chairman didn’t know who he was.”

Why Johnny at the time?

Was he someone who wasn’t poisoned by WCW so to speak?

Did you know at the time you were hiring your replacement? Or were you looking to train him to be your replacement?

How hands on were you with Johnny?

Now part of his responsibility was for Ace to be an agent. Why did he do both do you know?

What were his strengths and weaknesses in that role?

It doesn’t take long before the rumors start…in the Observer in January of 2003:

“John Laurinaitis is said to be pushing hard for the spot running the talent relations department, which is Jim Ross’ job. Laurinaitis appeared to be groomed to eventually take over the spot, and there have been rumors for months regarding this, getting stronger with the idea that Ross would retire from the position by the end of this year.

Vince McMahon has talked with Ross about slowing down, but Ross is wanting to delegate more to Laurinaitis. Laurinaitis is the lead agent right now on Smackdown.”

Were you thinking of retiring? Did you think you would be the one who got to choose the date you left the role?

Had Vince spoken to you about slowing down…or were these conversations you were starting with Vince?

What were Jan’s thoughts on all this at the time?

Did you see it coming? Was it a countdown in your mind?

You wrote in your book you were dealing with medical issues and it forced you to self medicate. Do you think it led to the change?

You wrote this:

“My team and I had built the most successful roster in the history of WWE—and we had a whole new crop of future main-eventers and Hall of Famers in the pipeline. But this was the wrestling business, and new was always better, even if it wasn’t right.

I’d heard rumors that my time in talent relations was coming to an end, but not one single word was mentioned to me before Vince said, “I’m moving in a different direction, J.R.”

Let’s stop right there - who were some of your most important members of your team?

Did you think it was time for you to move out of the position?

From your book:

We were backstage in a makeshift office just before our TV taping was to begin.

“Different direction?” I asked.

Vince nodded. “I want you to go down to the locker room and introduce Johnny as the new head of talent.”

The Johnny he was talking about was John Laurinaitis, whom I’d hired from WCW. Johnny Ace, as he was known in our business, was my number two, and he had clearly set his sights on my job.

“Okay,” I replied.

Vince, being Vince, moved on to some other piece of business, and that was it. The chairman had made his decision—no discussion, no feedback, no explanation. I was simply out. I didn’t know what I’d done or didn’t do—to be pushed aside; I didn’t ask, either. As usual, I wanted to be seen as the strong, silent type; or maybe I was afraid of the answer.”

What runs through your head JR? Do you sit there and reflect on what you could’ve done differently or changed?

“Vince talked constantly about respect in the wrestling business, and I, like a fool, bought it. Seemed to me, at that moment, that respect only flowed one way. I didn’t even get a thank-you.

But, as always, I did what I was asked to do, and I introduced John in his new role. Even though a lot of the Boys side-eyed the decision, I kept my mouth shut; no one would see how much it broke my heart. My official line was, “Vince wanted to make a change, and that’s what’s happening.”

Do you think there was one point or can you point to one particular moment that led to this?

From the Torch

“Before the Apr. 12 Raw, Vince McMahon announced the change to the wrestlers. Jim Ross then gave a heart–felt speech for about ten minutes about how much working with wrestlers has meant to him, how everyone feels like family to him, and how he’ll still be around. He introduced Laurinaitis as his replacement, who then gave a brief speech to wrestlers, all of whom he is quite familiar with already. Laurinaitis was originally in charge of the former WCW wrestlers whose contracts were acquired as part of the buyout of WCW’s assets from Time Warner. The idea was for the brands to be separate and for Laurinaitis to be the main person in charge of the WCW–brand talents. Since the WCW brand was phased out, he ended up working with all talent, although he remained more closely involved with newer names while Ross worked closer with longtime WWE wrestlers.”

Do you think that with the transition of the company at this point that this was what Vince was looking for - to cycle out a General Manager in sports terms for a reset?

“Most wrestlers are cringing at the news of John Laurinautis’ promotion to head of talent relations. The wrestlers who are against the move say they haven’t cared for Laurinautis ’s style since he joined the company and exposed himself as “an ass kisser and a suck up.” However, Laurinautis does have some supporters, particularly TNA and independent wrestlers who for whatever reason are under the impression that he has a better grip on the available talent than Ross did. Insiders say Ross will be advising Vince McMahon closer than he had been in the past year, and will continue to help Laurinautis make the transition. One area Laurinautis may need Ross’s expertise is in booking the house shows, as wrestlers are already grumbling there was a noticeable drop in house show booking quality this past weekend.”

Did you feel it right away - did the talent feel it right away - or the difference in process or business?

Let’s put it out there - was Johnny more corporate than you were do you think?

Also from the Torch

“Because John Laurinautis has been groomed for this position for over a year now, it’s helped him get some of “his people” in place as it pertains to the road agents. Among the agents considered to be Laurinautis ’s main allies are Dean Malenko and Fit Finlay. There is some heat on both agents dating back a while over the reports they file on the house shows. The feeling in some circles is that neither agent wants to ruffle any feathers, so they give good reviews to matches involving people they know the power players in the company want to get over. However, now that some of those wrestlers have failed to get over on television, Malenko and Finlay are being blamed for filing misleading agent reports.”

Did you ever hear that about Dean or Fit and do you agree with that assessment or is that talent just going out there and saying it?

Dave Meltzer had this to say JR:

“Ross. 52, who had headed the department since 1996, has both privately and even publicly talked about wanting to tone down his responsibilities in the company. Ross had always talked about remaining as an announcer after giving up his talent relations job.”

Who had you been talking to about winding down and toning down responsibilities to?

“This may wind up being a plus for the broadcasts, because being less bogged down with the workload should give him more time to concentrate on announcing. When Ross bought a new home in Norman, OK, last year, it again spurred talk he'd be giving up his duties, which included handling payroll, booking the house shows and negotiating contracts as well as hiring and firing the wrestling talent, running the developmental system and many other things that Laurinatis will be taking over.”

Do you think buying the home in Norman was a signal sent to Vince you were ready to move on?

“Ross' newly created position is to work with Vince McMahon on all wrestling business decisions as opposed to just the talent end, as well as work more with the senior management team. The team consists of Linda McMahon, CFO Phil Livingston, chief counsel Ed Kaufmann, Shane McMahon as executive vice president of Global Media, Kevin Dunn as executive vice president of TV Production, Kurt Schneider as executive vice president of Marketing, Ed Cohen as senior vice president of Event Booking (who now handles both domestic and overseas events), Stephanie McMahon-Levesque as head of creative, and Basil De Vito, who is a vice president and marketing adviser.”

Regarding your new role you wrote this in your book:

“It didn’t really hit me until I saw a statement posted on WWE’s website to make the change public and permanent:

“Jim Ross takes on Business Strategies position, John Laurinaitis to head WWE Talent Relations.

Jim Ross (J.R.) has moved to the new role of Executive Vice President, Business Strategies. In this role, Jim will work closely with Vince McMahon, WWE Chairman, as an advisor on WWE’s core business, as well as new business endeavors. He will continue as the famous “black hat” announcer on WWE Monday Night Raw. John Laurinaitis has been promoted to Vice President of Talent Relations and will assume all the responsibilities of the Talent Relations Department.”

“It was the first time I ever felt ambivalent about my overall place in WWE. I still loved the business, and I knew I had so much left to give, but I was worn down from the constant politics of simply working there.

I was also physically hurting from the anxiety of having to look over my shoulder all the time, wondering where my next humiliation was coming from or what would happen to my job.

But I wanted to tough it out. I wanted to be who my father expected his son to be. I wanted to be the man whom I thought Jan would respect more. I wanted to be the good soldier whom Vince hired.”

Do you really think at the end of the day you didn’t finish the job because you didn’t go out on your terms?

From the Observer

“Ross largely deserves credit for the make-up of the current roster.

While any eight year-run will have its major hits and misses, Ross expanded the company's talent development, which really saved the company in a period when the independents were not developing the type of talent that McMahon liked and could be marketed. Ross first started the developmental program as week-long training camps under Dory Funk Jr. in recruiting the top independent talent around North America and set up Memphis as something of a farm club. Later, when Jim Cornette wanted out of Connecticut, the two set up OVW as the primary developmental territory. At one point the company's developmental system included affiliations with UPW in Los Angeles, IWA in Puerto Rico and HWA in Cincinnati (after all sorts of problems in Memphis rendered it a disaster). Due to budget cuts when business went down, all were dropped except OVW.”

Eventually OVW would be replaced - if you were still a head of talent relations, do you think that relationship could’ve been saved or do you think it would’ve fallen apart with Jim Cornette at some point in time?

“Ross' beliefs, since every company in Japan of some size, including the MMA companies, wanted to do business with WWE, was the company was better off in the Japanese market running its own style shows on its own, using no outside talent. He felt it was best not to send any talent to Japanese groups, and when it comes to the main roster talent, I'd concur. It keeps from diluting the WWE events as the only place to see WWE talent, even though big money offers have been made.

There were also a lot of other minor changes fans wouldn't be aware of.

The workrate at the house shows increased substantially for several reasons. First was the general quality of wrestlers increased since more of a premium was based on wrestling. Second, the schedule was made more sane, with, generally, four dates a week max, and elimination of double-shots. With the four dates the same each week, wrestlers were able to get on a regular weekly routine when it came to family time and gym time, as opposed to the old schedule where wrestlers could be on the road at any time.”

You made some monumental changes that really are still being felt today in business. How does that make you feel?

“Ross ordered new rings, at the behest of a lot of the talent who complained about the old rings. This sped up the matches and increased the flying moves because the old rings, built to handle giants like Yokozuna, were much harder on the body to repeatedly bump in. Ross was key among those behind changes to tone down the risks inside the ring and do a more psychologically oriented style. This was due to the worst injury rate in history. The change was made at a time when the success of the high-risk style led to the most profitable period in the history of the industry.”

Was it you spearheading all of this JR?

“Laurinaitis will be in full charge of booking the live events, and will become the most important person in deciding what wrestlers are kept, who are let go, and make the final decisions when it comes to the developmental territories and who gets signed to developmental contracts. Until recent weeks, the house show booking was done by Ross, Laurinaitis and Paul Heyman. Heyman has had no involvement in the process since his television character was dropped and he stopped attending shows. Laurinaitis' role in all these aspects had been expanding in recent months, and has become a close political ally of Stephanie McMahon.

Former wrestler Tom Prichard also will be involved in many aspects of working with the developmental system. It is well known that Ross favored going after talent with legitimate strong athletic backgrounds, in particular college football players and high level amateur wrestlers, feeling if you've been successful in those sports, most likely you have the mental toughness that is needed to survive in pro wrestling.”

WWE in recent years has expanded that thinking behind Triple H’s push for college athletes and now with NIL deals you really see it taking shape. Do you think you were just ahead of your time?

“Certainly in recent months there has been more of an emphasis on signing and bringing up good looking or unique looking people with size and bodies, even when their own trainers felt they were far from ready. There were also the recent hirings of Playboy-like women with nothing going for them except their bodies, most of whom have already washed out.”

This has been a knock on Johnny since he took over and before he left the first time - you were at ringside for a lot of these things after the fact - what did you see in terms of change in philosophy when you weren’t calling the shots anymore?

The Observer would continue

The only talent relations duty Ross is continuing at present is that he

and McMahon will be handling the payoffs at present, which saves Laurinaitis from the spot where he'd get the fastest heat. The plan is for Laurinaitis to take that over at some point.

You wrote in your book and you’ve said on this podcast before - that you kept doing that for a long time. Were you holding on to it as it was your last connection to the job - or did you think Johnny couldn’t handle it?

“Most we've talked to thought it was positive, in that Ross' voice working with senior management and more closely with McMahon would be a benefit to the product, and they got along with Laurinaitis. But there were wrestlers who used the term "Black Friday* when the announcement was made.”

Do you consider this a watershed moment in your career?

From your book

“ It was framed later like I’d been given a promotion; they even came up with a “Senior VP of Business Strategies” title for me to move into, but I was never even told what the head of business strategies does. I had a sneaking suspicion it didn’t matter. It was simply etched on a door that led to a big new office. The second I walked in, I knew I’d never feel comfortable there, because to me this was the retirement home, built to keep me away from the real work that I loved.

I did use the quiet of the office to think, though. My phone wasn’t ringing and my doorway wasn’t busy; I didn’t have the pressure of payroll, nor the headaches of talent issues; I wasn’t scouting anyone or negotiating a deal.

And I hated it.”

You just needed something to do is that right?

Did you feel it was a retirement gig?

Was being the head of talent relations the most fulfilling job you ever had - the hardest - what is it when you look back you can point to about the job?