Grilling JR - Brawl For All [Show Notes] (Patreon)

It’s the summer of 1998 JR. 25 years ago. And the WWF - coming out of King of the Ring - rolls out this brand new concept…Brawl for All.

JR - the WWF’s product is the hottest it had been in YEARS - where does this idea come from?

What did you think of it?

How did Vince McMahon ever agree to this?

From the Observer

“WWF attempted to do matches without a predetermined finish, which is something I never thought I'd see in the WWF and wonder what that means if they run in states where pro wrestling isn't regulated but where boxing or Tough Man contests are as far as tax laws and the like are concerned.”

JR - this is unknown territory for the World Wrestling Federation…and this concept itself is quite controversial. Were you involved in selling the talent roster on it - did that fall under your job - or was this creative?

The rules are…three one minute rounds, 20 ounce gloves to minimize the damages of punches…and takedowns legal but the wrestlers would be immediately stood up to eliminate any ground fighting or submissions…what did you think of the rules themselves?

Was the goal to make sure it wouldn’t look like a professional wrestling match? Or a UFC fight?

If Steve Williams wasn’t signed to the roster - does Brawl for All happen?

Vince Russo has said that Brawl for All was because of JBL being a bully and wanting to shut him up. Do you really believe that?

Was JBL a bully at the time?

What was Dr. Death’s thoughts on the concept?

Did you think it was a good or bad idea for him to be in there?

Did you know his health at the time - did you think he was built for this anymore?

From the Observer

“They had corner men who could throw in the towel, and used wrestling legend Danny Hodge as the referee (interesting to note that Jim Ross made a much bigger deal of Hodge's standing as an amateur wrestler and Golden gloves boxing champion as compared with his lengthy history as a major star in pro wrestling to where from a historical standpoint he'd probably have to rank along with Jushin Liger as the greatest junior heavyweight wrestler in history).”

How does Danny Hodge get involved in this and what did he think of it?

Do you think Danny was a bigger deal in amateur wrestling or in professional wrestling?

Danny was only used as in-ring referee for the first two brawls, WWF ref Jack Doan was used instead for the in-ring referee role while Hodge was moved to the judges table.

Why the change?

The Observer would continue…

The rules were that every takedown would be worth five points, a knockdown would be worth ten points, a knockout would end the match, no actual wrestling holds were legal (can you imagine the silliness that when pro wrestlers in the U.S. shoot they aren't allowed to use any wrestling holds) and whoever delivered the most punches in a round would get five points.

How did you feel having to sell this as an announcer and did you believe in it?

The first two fights…brawls..matches…whatever way you want to describe it takes place on the Raw after King of the Ring in Cleveland. Now mind you…the night before featured Mick Foley being thrown off and through a cage…and now this is what is being presented. How hard is it to touch on the fact that what you saw last night had real life consequences…and at the same time Steve Austin lost the WWF Title in a first blood match when a fake brother came out to make sure his fake brother didn’t have to light himself on fire in case he lost the match…like what are we doing?

The first match is Marc Mero vs. Steve Blackman. Here you have a golden gloves boxer and a legit martial artist…quite the debut isn’t it?

The crowd would chant “We Want Wrestling” during Mero & Blackman…and Blackman would control the match and take Mero down constantly and prohibit Marc from being able to show off his boxing skills. Now Blackman held his own when standing…but when you trot this out for the first time…this is quite the tough styles clash to get involved in is it not?

Blackman wins the decision and the next fight is Mark Canterbury…in the middle of becoming a member of Southern Justice but just most recently known as Henry Godwinn taking on Bradshaw. Bradshaw gets the win via decision but it almost seems like it could’ve been a draw because Canterbury got a takedown but…I don’t know…it’s just so hard to get behind the concept…especially when the crowd is chanting boring. It’s different - and I like different thoughts on wrestling - but this…wasn’t it was it?

From the Observer regarding Bradshaw & Canterbury

That was more like watching a low level tough man contest as two big guys banged away with no form or skill, and even with the short one minute rounds, both were noticeably gassing 40 seconds into it.

Does this help…anyone? After week 1 was anybody benefiting from this do you think?

Did anyone raise their hand and go…Vince…Vince…this isn’t going to work?

It was talked about on Dark Side of the Ring about how finding talent was like finding 16 guys who had nothing lose…do you think that’s a fair assessment of the finding guys to participate?

From the Observer

Neither Dan Severn or Ken Shamrock were allowed to enter. Under the rules they have, Severn in particular would destroy everyone in there because he'd be able to take them all down at will time after time and pile up an insurmountable lead in points and with those almost pillow like gloves, nobody is going to knock him out.

Was it a decision by WWF management to not include Dan or Ken? Do you think it would’ve been pointless to put them in…or could it had been an avenue or vehicle to increase at least Dan Severn’s role in the company?

Looking back - who on the roster at the time had the most to gain from this gimmick?

Would Dan Severn vs. Ken Shamrock in a Brawl for All finals have been able to draw money?

Couldn’t you have had this tournament…been a work…and made it make sense to do what it’s supposed to…draw money, viewers, something?

From the Observer

We did get one office report that while this would start out as shoots, that eventually angles would be done with it which lends credence to that theory. There is an argument that airing shoots exposes the rest of the show as works, but in this day and age when people have seen shoots and works and everyone knows wrestling is a work, that argument really doesn't hold water. It does, however, risk exposing guys as not being good fighters in real life which is very different from participating in matches that are worked and the fact that big guys are pounding away without even staggering the other makes it weird when they bump for single punches in the future, but again, everyone knows pro wrestling itself is a work. But when none of the top guys are put at risk, there is really no harmful effect on box office to this.

JR - you grew up in the Bill Watts era…if you lost a real fight in a bar…you were out of town quickly. Was the business this different at this point?

The next week in State College the second set of matches is taped but by the time they air…Brawl for All is the talk of the business…was it more interesting to those in the business compared to those watching on TV or in the audience?

The bracket is released and the story is that it was a blind draw by Victor Quinones…is that story true?

Savio Vega defeated Brakkus in his Raw debut with a 30-5 score…I mean this meant Brakkus was dead immediately right?

How dumb is this concept that a guy who had vingettes building up his debut…and this is how it happens…or was this the plan knowing he wasn’t going to be anything?

Was the plan for whoever won…to work with Steve Austin?

Hawk and Darren Drozdov are matched up in the tournament after Droz is put into the Legion of Doom. Hard to believe it’s a random draw is it not?

Bart Gunn said on Dark Side of the Ring that he didn’t believe the draw was random considering he was paired up against his tag team partner of Bob Holly…what say you?

Speaking of draws…Droz & Hawk go to a draw…not the best finish for this type of tournament is it?

How quickly were you over trying to get this over?

Did anyone come up to anyone in the office after the first couple of matches who said they weren’t interested in doing it that now they were interested in doing it?

From the Observer

“Nobody was forced to enter and the wrestlers are getting paid extra for doing the shoots, supposedly with $5,000 going to the winners of every match and $2,500 to the losers and a $75,000 bonus going to the winner of the tournament final according to another official.”

For Vince Russo’s project to embarrass JBL…this is quite the payday is it not? Was it this after it was hard to get people into the tournament…or always the plan?

Three weeks in and the Brawl for All is gaining some curiosity and starting to get some reactions from the crowd…but there’s an interesting twist…Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock are both asked to join. Was this a last ditch effort by the office to make this successful or someone successful?

Severn said yes and Shamrock said no…were you surprised by that?

It’s reported that Shamrock was told he would be taking on 8 Ball…Ron Harris…is when he opted out. Do you know that to be true?

Do you think Severn had more to lose compared to Shamrock - who recently won King of the Ring?

In the Observer when Bart Gunn defeating Bob Holly is brought up…Meltzer called it “suspicious at times, and clearly ended with a worked angle.” To your knowledge…was there any fights…matches…ever worked?

From the Observer

“The Gunn vs. Holly match started with the announcement that Jim Cornette had resigned as manager of the team in protest of this fight. In reality, Cornette had decided to quit as a manager legitimately. Based on the camera work with Holly's facials, at least some of this match was a work. Gunn had a slight edge in the first round, which the crowd heavily booed. Gunn easily won the second round, which the fans booed even more, and stunned Holly both in the second and third round but never knocked him down enroute to what should have been a 15-0 victory.

Other wrestlers that have been involved in this have categorized it to a point as a shoot, but when friends have fought they are going out of their way not to hurt each other with punches, although with those big gloves it wouldn't be easy.”

Is that a fair assessment that guys weren’t trying to hurt each other? Does that discredit what is trying to be accomplished?

Severn would defeat Kama Mustafa - now known as the Godfather - in his first round contest. The Godfather would be known as that from this point forward…Kama needed this shift in character at this point didn’t he?

Severn would replace Shawn Stasiak in the match and its obvious that Severn didn’t know what he was doing inside the rules because he would take down the Godfather and attempt to pin or submit him. Where is that break down in your mind…office or wrestler?

The next set of tapings would have Scorpio defeat Ron Harris and Steve Williams would destroy Pierre. Now Williams is taking on a man - Pierre - now known as PCO - who had one eye operational. You understand why many would think this tournament was set up for Williams to be successful right?

Scorpio & 8-Ball is only shown in edited form …do you know if it was that bad or did a show run long to your knowledge?

The quarter-finals are announced as Steve Blackman taking on Bradshaw, Savio Vega with a bye, Severn taking on Bart Gunn and Williams vs. Scorpio. Do you know why the bracket was changed?

When the bracket changes…”Dr. Death” & Bart Gunn’s worlds change…

From the Observer

“In a huge upset in the Brawl for All and probably among the biggest shocks in recent wrestling history, Bart Gunn knocked out Steve Williams in :52 of the third round.

They re-did the bracketing and I've got no idea why (although it was hinted to me that they would) and have no idea what the new brackets are.

Gunn, who has won Tough Man contests in the past, fought a much smarter fight in beating the tourney favorite.

The plan was for Williams to win this tourney to set him up as a challenger for Austin and as UFC has learned, nobody can predict shoots, especially with the strange rules this has. Williams scored a takedown in the first round and hit more punches, although it was clear Gunn was better on his feet, to take a 10-0 lead. But Gunn stayed near the ropes which made it difficult for Williams to take him down and at one time actually held the ropes to avoid going down (which should be against the rules, but they actually need to re-work the rules if they want to do this again next year because there are so many flaws just as in the infancy of UFC where the rules were constantly being tinkered with to get a good product). Gunn stayed near the ropes in the second round to avoid a takedown, and Williams threw a lot more punches and was tiring himself out, and Gunn shocked Williams with a great upper body fake into a takedown of a four-time All-American wrestler.

Even though Williams was up 15-5 with one round left, he was the one tiring. In the third round, Williams' exhaustion caught up to him and Gunn got behind him on the mat in a scramble which could have been called a takedown, was eating him up standing, and then without a fake, simply took him down, and when that happened you knew Williams was in trouble. Williams apparently dislocated his knee on the takedown, and got up and gutted it out, but between the exhaustion and lack of mobility, Gunn pummeled him and connected with a left hook that apparently dislocated Williams' jaw and put him down.”

This is a disaster for many reasons isn’t it?

What do you remember saying to Steve Williams after this? Did you talk with Bart Gunn?

Was anybody giving you any ribbing regarding Williams being defeated?

Do you think this cost Dr. Death the millions of dollars everyone talks about?

Did you think he could recover from this?

From the Observer

With the stunning knockout of Steve Williams, yet another new wrinkle has come out of the WWF's Brawl for All, the first attempt to do non-worked matches in the history of the company.

Whether this experiment has been a success or a failure is really hard to analyze at this point. If you look at it specifically from a television ratings standpoint, which is what this was primarily designed for, it has been a success.

Wrestlers who normally do poorly in the ratings have generally done well, and have been usually behind only the Steve Austin- Vince McMahon- Undertaker- Mankind- Kane main event program and DX as the highest rated segments of the show nearly every week. But to say the segments have done good ratings and not examine it any farther would be a huge mistake. There have been both positives and negatives to the segments, and once the first tournament is over, there needs to be a re-examination of this concept. If the decision is made to try and it again, there are some changes learned from the problems that have surfaced.

The biggest negative is not the obvious one, the inability to control and manipulate a shoot. In the case of Williams, you have a guy being groomed for a title shot with Steve Austin on a PPV getting put in a position that the office surely wouldn't have liked for viewers to see him in. This isn't to say Williams is dead, because that's stupid in this day and age when you can rehabilitate anyone with a few wins and most fans forget everything they've seen within a few weeks due to the sheer volume of television product. But has some of the luster been taken off him as "the toughest man" in wrestling, which probably was the key thing that he was going to be marketed as going against Austin? Absolutely no question. “

Was this as bad as everyone looks back on 25 years later?

The biggest takeaway I got from doing this research was the injuries. Between Steve Williams suffering major injuries…tearing his hamstring and dislocating his knee…Savio Vega suffered an injury to the vertebrae in his neck…Hawk broke his nose…Blackman ruptured a tendon in his knee in training for the tournament…was this JBL punishment project ever worth it in the long run?

The money wasted on injured talent because of this is in the hundreds of thousands let alone millions is it not?

How much of a nightmare is this from a talent relations standpoint?

Did anyone threaten…we signed to be wrestlers who have pre-determined finishes…and not fighters literally fighting and this is against their contract?

The talk about the fights themselves seems to be great…but could this had been different with a month lead time…people able to train and prepare and everything be worked out ahead of time in terms of rules and what to expect?

Droz is put back into the tournament to take on Savio Vega…if Vega can do it. Marc Mero is put back in after Blackman’s injury as well to take on Bradshaw. Severn pulls out…what a mess and disaster this is JR…

Godfather is put back in after Severn pulls out and that looks shitty doesn’t it?

Godfather would defeat Scorpio to move on and in a change…Danny Hodge is now the judge of what’s a takedown is or isn’t…what was your relationship like with Mr. Hodge at this time?

Vince Russo putting together a tournament of real fights which features Danny Hodge prominently looks even crazier 25 years later doesn’t it?

Droz crushes Vega as Savio isn’t 100% and moves on with a 25-0 win. Did you see Droz as a legitimate tough guy compared to the rest back then?

Also in Omaha…from the Observer

“Godfather came out with three sleazy looking broads for a match with Vader. Godfather offered Vader all three for one night if he didn't wrestle him and Vader accepted the offer, but as he was leaving, Bart Gunn KO'd Vader with a left and did a pull- apart with Godfather to set up their match. Gunn also yelled at Jim Ross saying that he's making excuses for Williams losing with the torn hamstring and not giving him credit since he KO'd Williams as he told Ross he would do, as apparently before the match Gunn had bragged to Ross that he was going to KO Williams.”

Why do you think they wanted Bart Gunn to put the heat on you regarding this? Did this have anywhere to go?

Was the heat legit with you & Bart - and who do you think was the one torquing up Bart regarding this?

“Bradshaw somehow beat Mero in the Brawl-for-All. This was the closest and most heated match to date as I don't know what it was but either they were working or they didn't like each other. Mero won the first two rounds standing but Bradshaw got one takedown in each round making it 10-10 after two. In the third round, Bradshaw went for a takedown but Mero held onto the ropes, which should be illegal but isn't. The ref called for a break and Mero let go, but Bradshaw didn't break and then took him down and ref Jack Doan called a takedown, which was ludicrous officiating. Still, Mero won that round standing so it was 15-15 but in reality Mero should have won. They did a one round overtime and it was the same story, Bradshaw got one takedown and Mero won the round standing to make it 20-20, and then Bradshaw for no reason was announced as the winner.”

Mero looked legitimately pissed after this…what do you remember of all this and Bradshaw’s victory?

The semi-finals are taped in Des Moines and here is the report from the Torch:

“Bart Gunn knocked out the Godfather eighteen seconds into the 3rd round. Bart tried to surprise the Godfather early by going for a takedown but the Godfather blocked it. Bart got in some nice punches, but the Godfather hit him with a nice left right combo. Ross said Bart was up unofficially after one round. At the start of the second round, Bart again tried a unsuccessful takedown. Godfather then trapped Bart in the corner and landed some nice shots that had Bart woozy. Bart managed to escape and hit him with a flurry of hard lefts that sent Godfather to the mat with one second left to go. It was all Bart in the third…”

Was Bart impressing you more & more by this point?

Godfather was legit hurt in this fight…broken foot…torn calf…torn knee ligaments and a torn hamstring. In reality though this probably helped him come back as the true pimp Godfather compared to the transition of the Nation member right?

“Bradshaw beat Droz by a decision. Droz came out swinging but Bradshaw muscles him off. With 17 seconds left in the first round Bradshaw hit Droz with a solid jab. Bradshaw led after one. Midway into the 2nd round, Droz got in a nice flurry of punches. Bradshaw retaliated with two punches to the back of the head. In boxing, they would have been illegal, but no mention was made. Late in the round, Droz attempted the first take down of the match and got it. Droz trailed 10-5 going into the final round. Not much action in the 3rd as both men appeared to be blown up. The crowd booed the decision. I don’t think they so much disagreed with the decision as Droz may be taking off a little bit. Bradshaw will meet Bart in the finals, next Monday…”

It was a major point in Dark Side of the ring how everyone thought Droz actually defeated Bradshaw … what say you?

Who did you expect to win between Bart & Bradshaw?

From the Observer

“Due to all the casualties, I think it should be a pretty strong consensus that the Brawl for All idea was one that ultimately didn't work. The ratings the past few weeks weren't good, but that was because they didn't have any big stars in it and put it on against some pretty strong star power Nitro competition.”

Do you think there was anyway this concept could’ve been successful?

The finals take place on August 24th in Philadelphia and…well…

From the Observer

“Bart Gunn knocked out Bradshaw in 42 seconds in the Brawl for All championship match where the winner was to receive $75,000 and the loser $25,000 and those numbers were supposed to be shoots in that the wrestlers were told those figures to reach the finals from the beginning of the tournament. There were again a lot of people calling thinking this match was a work. I couldn't say except that there were those suspicious among the boys as well after the fact which is natural. The funny thing is that years ago pro wrestling people thought they were able to con the public into thinking this pre-arranged stuff was real. Now they can't even not fool the public when the few things that are real take place because the public doesn't believe anything including what is real to be real. Gunn will probably get some sort of a push out of this thing. It was funny about Michaels talking about how tough these guys were and admitting that he wasn't tough at all.”

Well JR - what say you? Work…or shoot?

Why was Bart Gunn unable to capitalize on this?

Literally the Golden Gloves award is presented to him…two weeks later…on Shotgun…by you. That was a rib right?

At this point did Vince just want this all to go away?

Were there any short term plans for Bart?

The next time we would see Bart wrestle…was for a WWF training camp…how exactly does this value the TV time devoted to this?

Did Bart have heat for winning? Did anyone make his life or career difficult?

Bart would return on Raw on February 15th to challenge Hardcore Holly to a hardcore title match…the match would feature the return of Dr. Death in a Kabuki mask and throw Bart off the stage through a table….

THEN…it’s announced that Butterbean would take on Bart Gunn in a Brawl for All at WrestleMania XV…where the hell did this all come from?

We all know the story at WrestleMania…Butterbean knocks out Bart Gunn in 35 seconds and Butterbean has said he thought it was punishment for Bart knocking Steve Williams out. Is that ridiculous to you?

This would be the end of the Bart Gunn run…and the Brawl for All never takes place again and is barely mentioned by the WWF…where does this rank in the worst ideas in professional wrestling history?