STW - The Rise of John Cena Pt. 2 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Our original episode, “The Rise of John Cena” premieried in 2017 and we remixed it in 2021. We left off in 2004, right after WrestleMania XX.

As a reminder, this is the era when Cena’s using the “Doctor of Thuganomics” gimmick. He beat the Big Show at that WrestleMania in 2004 to win the US Title, his first singles championship in the WWE.

On our first Rise of John Cena episode about how Cena went out of his way to make the US Title feel special, how he really honored the title, and how you even customized it with the spinning center inspired by rims or turntables, as you would say. At the same WrestleMania when Cena won the US Title, Chris Benoit, that year’s Royal Rumble winner, defeated Shawn Michaels and Triple H in a Triple Threat match to win Raw’s World Heavyweight Championship.

Bruce, even though Cena is on SmackDown and Benoit is on Raw, were there any ideas floated for the two to have a collision course?

March 2004 - April 2005

From March to July, Cena successfully defended the title at house shows and on SmackDown successfully against Rhyno, JBL, Rene Dupree, Johnny Stamboli and Nunzio in a handicap match, Danny Basham, Akio, Booker T., Luther Reigns, and Rob Van Dam. The biggest victories came against Dupree at Judgement Day that May and in a Fatal Fourway at the Great American Bash in June over Dupree, Booker T., and Van Dam.

We don’t talk too much about Johnny Stamboli and Nunzio here on the show. Got any good stories?

Was this just prepping John to be ready for the top spot…or is this just an indication of how weak the Smackdown heel side was during this time period?

The handicap match against Stamboli and Nunzio on March 30 is a qualifying match for Kurt Angle’s “Great American Award” and thus be named number 1 contender for Eddie Guerrero’s WWE Title. As a reminder, Angle is the SmackDown General Manager at this point, after being knocked out of competition due to neck injuries following his WrestleMania XX match against Guerrero. Angle invites all the nominees to the ring, beginning with Cena, who gets a huge ovation from the crowd. Cena enters the ring and pulls a bag of “Deez Nuts” out of his pocket, stuffing it in Kurt’s jacket breast pocket.

How much did John benefit from having Kurt to play off at this point in time?

Cena won this vote with 280,429 out of 420,686 total votes - was this a shoot poll Bruce?

Right as Angle is about to make the official announcement, JBL interrupts, arguing he deserves the award more than anyone else. He then points to the Titantron on which a video plays of JBL in the middle of the night claiming to be on the Texas side of the Texas-Mexico border. He cuts a whispering promo about illegal Mexican immigrants coming over the border to ruin the US economy. He chases down a Mexican family trying to sneak over the border, sending them back home.

Of course, since Angle is a heel, Kurt gives the award and the number 1 contendership to JBL. Kurt unveils the trophy but Eddie has stolen it and left a portrait of himself instead. The fires are stoked for the conservative JBL against the Mexican-American Guerrero, and we also have a seed planted for a future feud between JBL and Cena.

Bruce, this anti-immigration was controversial, but we have to remember that in 2004 we were only a few years removed from 9/11 and in the midst of George W. Bush’s War on Terror. Was there any concern with this angle?

Did you produce the shoot at “the border”?

Who were the Mexican family JBL chased down?

Were you consciously thinking forward about a JBL-Cena feud this early on? Or was it just a happy accident that Cena could help evolve the story between JBL and Guerrero?

On the July 8 episode of SmackDown, Cena is stripped of the US Title by Angle, after Cena accidentally attacked him. To earn the title back, Angle put Cena into a best of five series against Booker T. that lasted from August 15 at SummerSlam to October 3 at No Mercy.

• August 15 - Cena wins at SummerSlam ‘04 from Toronto, Canada in 6:20
• August 24 - Booker T. wins on SmackDown from Fresno, CA in 9:45
• August 27 - Booker T. wins at a house show in at the Superdome in Sydney, Australia (no time listed)
• September 14 - John Cena wins on SmackDown from Spoke, WA in 12:00
• October 3 - John Cena wins at No Mercy from East Rutherford, NJ in 10:20 - Cena reclaims the US Title

Bruce, let’s chat about the structure of this series. It’s a pretty cool idea. First, why do a Best of Five series, instead of building to one big match?

When the idea of the Best of Five is first floated, do you establish the dates of each match, or just the major ones at the PPVs? (ie the first one at SummerSlam and the last one at No Mercy?)

It makes sense that most of these matches are on PPV or on TV. But I do want to talk about the third match at the Superdome in Sydney, Australia. We don't spend much time here on the show discussing the WWE’s relationship with Australia. The company’s first Australian tour was in 1985 with a second one in 1986. But then there’s not another tour until the Global Warning Tour in 2002.

Bruce, when you arrived in 1987, was there any talk about heading back to Australia? Did the logistics and cost keep you from running another tour?

What changed by 2002 that signaled the WWE was ready to tour Australia again, after not being there since 1986?

Do you have any interesting memories of the 2002 Global Warning tour of Australia? How did you settle on that name for the tour?

Two days after finally regaining the US Title at No Mercy, Cena loses it on SmackDown to newcomer Carlito Caribbean Cool.

We know that Carlito would go on to become a top guy for some time. But it seems like you are building Cena. Why have Carlito win in his debut match, especially two days after Cena finally won the war with Booker T.?

Cena and Carlito start a feud that results in a storyline in which Cena is stabbed by Carlito’s bodyguard, Jesus, at a nightclub. In reality, Cena was stepping away to film the Marine.

A stabbing? Is that your idea, Bruce?

Jesus’s real name is Aaron Aguilera. What do you remember about Aguilera?

You mentioned in our first Rise of Cena episode that John was the only person to ever get you to do shots and miss your plane during the celebration of The Marine. But talk to us about the process of making the film.

How was the project first pitched to John? What was different about The Marine than, say, when Hulk Hogan left to film No Holds Barred in 1988? I mean that both in terms of how the storyline was structured to get him off TV and how the contract was negotiated.

While John’s away filming, are you in consistent communication with him? What are those conversations like? Is he concerned at all about losing his spot?

Cena returns at Survivor Series in a traditional elimination match. He teamed with Eddie Guerrero, Rob Van Dam, and the Big Show to defeat Carlito, Kurt Angle, Luther Reigns, and Mark Jindrak in 12:24. Cena, Eddie, and Show were the survivors of that one. Did you know at this point - what the end game of John’s was going to be? Was there any doubt he would be World Champion in the next year?

At the following SmackDown on November 16, Cena regained the US Title from Carlito in 25 seconds in Dayton, OH. Cena is a fighting champion, defending the title successfully in a string of matches against Rene Dupree, Kenzo Suzuki, and Kurt Angle up until the Royal Rumble on January 30, 2005.

This event is when we see the famous mishap where Cena and Batista go over the top rope together at the end of the Rumble match and Vince storms to the ring. In Vince’s haste to fix the error, he slid into the ring and tore both quadricep muscles.

We’ve talked about this before. But remind us what it’s like backstage when you see Cena and Bastista go over at the same time? What is your first reaction?

But all is not lost for Cena. At No Way Out on February 20, Cena beats Kurt Angle to earn the #1 contendership and a chance to compete for the WWE Heavyweight Title at WrestleMania XXI. Was John ready to step into the top guy role?

On March 17, 2005, “The Time is Now,” the first single from Cena’s album You Can’t See Me, was released. The song and album feel like logical extensions of the natural rapping talent you discussed in our Rise of Cena episode. But it also feels more authentic. Prior to You Can’t See Me, Cena had recorded “Basic Thuganomics,” his theme and “Untouchables” for the WWEThemeAddict Album: Vol. 6.

To be clear, when I say “authentic,” I’m talking specifically about The Wrestling Album in 1985, the Piledriver: The Wrestling Album II in 1987, and those where you have wrestlers trying to sing. Not saying that Cena was Eminem or a top tier rapper, but You Can’t See Me sounds like a more professional record.

How did the idea for this record get birthed and what lessons had the company learned from recording previous records with talent doing vocals?

How much creative control did WWE exert on the album? It seems like Vince would have wanted to hand-pick the guys representing Cena – and by extension the company – on a record like this.

How did you select the producers, co-writers, and musicians to play on the record?

The album is credited to John Cena & The Trademarc, Marc Joseph Predka, is Cena’s cousin. Is that correct?

Among the co-writers listed on the album are hip hop producers Daryl Pittman, who had worked with Funkmaster Flex, and Jamal Grinnage, who had worked with Jay-Z and Busta Rhymes. Were these guys fans excited to get involved, or did it take some coaxing to get them to step out of their comfort zones and work with Cena?

Records like this are also interesting from a Creative POV. How did you envision You Can’t See Me furthering the “Doctor of Thuganomics” character and its storylines long-term, if at all?

AllMusic.com notes that recording took place at Lobo Recording Studio in Deer Park, NY and at Basecamp Studios in Baton Rouge, LA. Does that sound right? From a behind the scenes perspective, how do you alter John’s wrestling schedule in a way so that he can have time to record? It must have been chaos in this era when he’s featured on almost every TV episode, but at the same time make room for him to hit the studio.

The record is released by Columbia Records in partnership with the WWE Music Group. Bruce, what was the process in setting up the WWE Music Group? Who comes up with the idea, and why was Columbia the right home to house the subsidiary label? Are you directly involved with any of the negotiations?

In the lead-up to WrestleMania, Cena is working with JBL and members of JBL’s Cabinet. Cena teams with Big Show to defeat JBL and Orlando Jordan on the February 22 episode of SmackDown. A week later on the show, Cena lost the US Title to Jordan, freeing him to focus on JBL’s WWE Title. Is there worry about him having to drop the title or is that just a storyline device?

WrestleMania is in Hollywood that year, so we also see Cena acting in one of several vignettes parodying famous movies. Cena portrays the Tom Cruise character from A Few Good Men and JBL as the Jack Nicholson character.

Bruce, these are really well done. How did you decide which movies to parody? What was the process?

After that, how do you cast each parody? Are guys like Cena lobbying for the parts?

We finally arrive at WrestleMania on April 3. Cena beats JBL for his first WWE Heavyweight Title in 11:18.

Dave Meltzer’s review of WrestleMania in the April 11 issue of the Observer started out positive. His headline read, “Last week I said WrestleMania should be good. I was wrong. It was very good.” But he wasn’t a fan of the Cena-JBL match:

“Cena vs. JBL was awful, a nothing match with a finish that came out of nowhere to the point where it made JBL look like a goof.  And because JBL looked like a goof, it hurt the belt, and that in turn hurt Cena.  If anyone thought Smackdown was the B-brand before, after this show you could almost argue that the WWE Title means less than the NWA Title right now.  As much as most people hated JBL as WWE Champion when he first won it, there were more than a few people (myself included) saddened by his loss, feeling that, in comparison to Cena (who didn’t seem over at all in the building Sunday), he was the lesser of two evils.”

Meltzer elaborated by writing:

“Zero heat early. Who would have thought these two wouldn’t be able to follow

the sumo match? I was hardly paying attention myself, and it wasn’t only because of the pizza. This SO did not feel like a World Title match. A light “JBL!” chant. Cena finally made a big comeback and there were noticeable boos. He hit the FU and just like that got the pin. No real nearfalls, no last-second kickouts, nothing. It was Cena vs. Orlando Jordan from Smackdown with JBL playing the Jordan role. That makes me sad.  (*1/2).”

Bruce, let’s unpack this. It’s quite a negative reaction. Did you get a sense that anyone else felt JBL came off goofy or that Cena was “the lesser of two evils”?

I also want to unpack this idea of what a title match “feels like.” It’s something hard to describe but there are matches that just have it. In your own words, what does a championship match “feel like” to you? Give me some examples of matches that meet that criteria.

Was there ever a plan to turn the JBL character babyface in this era? You already knew that JBL could get over with his APA character…but you needed a major heel for John to work correct?

JBL steals the title way from Cena, claiming he’s still the champion, and the Cabinet continues to feud with Cena. At a May 17 house show in Redding, California, Cena defeated JBL and Orlando Jordan in a handicap match. But the interesting thing is that Roddy Piper shows up as the guest referee.

What do you remember about Roddy being a part of this match? Why on a house show and not on TV?

But Cena gets it back on May 22 at Judgement Day, beating JBL in an “I Quit” match in 22:40 from Minneapolis. This is one of the bloodiest matches in WWE history - what’s the reaction backstage to this?

Once the feud wraps up, it’s time for a change. Cena is drafted to Raw on the June 6, 2005 episode of Raw, the first wrestler to be selected in the annual draft lottery.

Talk us through the decision to move Cena over to Raw, after he’d been such a fixture on SmackDown.

He’s immediately put into a feud with Raw GM Eric Bischoff. Was the hope to recreate boss and employee story like Vince & Austin was?

Cena gets on Bischoff’s bad side by refusing to help Raw against ECW at One Night Stand on June 12. Bischoff vows to make Cena’s life a living hell and deputizes Chris Jericho to wrestle Cena on his behalf, culminating in a match won by Cena at SummerSlam. The next night on Raw, Cena beats Jericho in a Loser Leaves Town match.

This is a mega push of epic proportions - working with all the top heels - but at the time there was talk that he wasn’t as polished in the ring as he should be working on the live show compared to the taped SmackDown…was that a concern internally?

The summer of 2005 is a turning point for Cena. He’s been a huge babyface and now he’s the WWE Champion, when you start to hear audible boos from live crowds.

Bruce, is there any concern about that? After all, you strap the rocketship to this guy and put all your resources behind him, and now the fans are starting to turn their backs. What did you think it was all about?

After Jericho, Bischoff started to favor Kurt Angle, rekindling Angle’s feud with Cena. Cena retained the title throughout the feud through the end of 2005, even picking up a win over Eric Bischoff in a NO DQ match on Raw from Dallas, TX on October 3. To combat Angle’s mat wrestling prowess, Cena started utilizing a new submission move called the STFU, a stepover toehold and crossface maneuver.

Is the invention of the STFU just Cena getting more skilled over time?

Talk us through the process of introducing a new move like this for an established talent. John Cena matches had become rather formulaic by this point.

Cena retained his WWE Title at New Year’s Revolution on January 8, 2006 in an Elimination Chamber match. But Mr. McMahon shocks the world by announcing Edge was cashing in the contract he won at WrestleMania XXI in the inaugural Money in the Bank ladder match. Edge won with two spears in 1;41, but Cena regained the title at the Royal Rumble on January 29. Was there ever any thought on making Edge the top guy after this?

Do you think it made Money in the Bank a failure to have Edge only hold the title for three weeks?

They battled at house shows in traditional matches, steel cage matches, and street fights mainly on house shows with Mick Foley occasionally acting as the special referee.

Is this something similar to when you brought in Piper the year before? Just an added attraction to get fans excited?

On TV, though, Cena’s storyline revolved around Triple H, the man who won the Royal Rumble and would challenge Cena at WrestleMania XXII.

Why have Cena fighting Edge on the house show loop and Triple H on TV? Why not integrate the two storylines?

We’ve got the entire Triple H extended family involved. On the March 13 episode of Raw, Cena teamed with Kane and the Big Show to defeat Triple H, Carlito, and Chris Masters. Then Cena and Hunter are forced to team in a handicap match against Kurt Angle, Randy Orton, and Rey Mysterio on Saturday Night’s Main Event #32 on March 18. On the March 20 episode of Raw, Cena teams with Shawn Michaels in a losing effort against Triple H and Shane McMahon. Then, a week later, Cena finds himself with a victory over Vince McMahon by DQ.

What did Vince think about working with Cena compared to Steve Austin, for example?

Cena beat Triple H at WrestleMania on April 2 from Rosemont, IL in 22:11.

Meltzer’s take in the April 10 Observer goes like this:

“Hunter vs. Cena wasn’t clicking, and the only thing intriguing about it was how

the folks would respond to Cena…Cena got a video package I guess comparing

him to a Depression-era bootlegger.  And so he came out in a vintage car flanked

by Al Capone and his men, one of whom was, believe it or not, CM Punk.”

Bruce, talk us through the logic of associating Cena with a bootlegger, someone that ran booze during the Prohibition era of the 1920s.

Why was CM Punk one of his henchmen? Was this a rib on Punk?

Meltzer continued: “Hunter got a fair share of boos early, but as soon as he started beating on Cena, the place started going nuts for him.  It’s so funny because there’s such a knock on Cena about being horrible in the ring, and while he’s not great and does look very bad at times, on this show alone we’d seen several people a hell of a lot worse…There was a dueling “LET’S GO CENA!” and “FUCK YOU CENA!   chant…He whacked Cena with the hammer and made the cover, but Cena kicked out. Hunter went for the pedigree and Cena hit the FU, but Hunter kicked out.  The fans were going ballistic. Cena missed a high cross off the top and Hunter went for another pedigree.  Cena slipped out, rolled through and put on the STFU. They teased doing a pass-out finish but Hunter HHH’d up, fought and fought and fought, and then tapped. (***3/4).”

Is this around the time you start to sense that fans feel Cena is being forced down their throats?

How do you think John has done as champion at this point?

Was there anything John was ever presented with that he said no to?

Cena was greeted by boos that night, something that only got worse at ECW One Night Stand on March 11 at New York’s Hammerstein Ballroom. At the event, Cena lost the WWE Title to Rob Van Dam.

Bruce, earlier we addressed whether you were concerned that Raw fans were booing Cena. But this is a unique animal. Fans at One Night Stand are chanting, “Fuck you, Cena!” and “You still suck!” I guess that’s partially what you want at an ECW show because fans’ hatred of traditional WWE stars is indicative of their love for ECW. Was Cena a pawn in this game to see how far you would be able to carry the ECW brand going forward?

Cena continues his feud with Edge and several ECW guys. He defeated Sabu in a Lumberjack match at Vengeance 2006. This leads to a Triple Threat match where his ECW feud and his house show feud with Edge come together. On the July 3 episode of Raw, Edge defeats Cena and champion RVD for the WWE Title. From here, Cena and Edge, one of the most memorable feuds of the mid 00s, are off to the races. Did you know, from earlier in the year, you could program these two together and have it be as hot as it was?

Cena chased Edge’s title for the next two months, winning it in a TLC match at Unforgiven ‘06 on September 17 in Toronto, Canada. They kept working together with the roles reversed in street fights, No Holds Barred Cena Has One Hand Tied Behind His Back matches, steel cage matches, and tag matches with various partners. How good were these two together?

Cena kept the title throughout, becoming embroiled in a feud with Kevin Federline, the controversial figure who was briefly married to Britney Spears. Federline, while appearing on Raw as the guest of Johnny Nitro (aka John Morrison) and Melina to promote his rap album, got into a physical altercation with Cena. To get his revenge, Federline interfered in Cena’s Triple Threat Match against Booker T and Big Show at Cyber Sunday. Federline even pinned Cena on the January 1, 2007 episode of Raw with an assist from Umaga.

Bruce, you told us in the past that Federline “was probably one of the celebrities that [you] had the most fun with” and that you were surprised because he was “on time. He did everything he was asked to do.” But remind us about how the relationship with Federline came together and how Cena reacted to being involved.

A feud with Umaga is up next. Sometimes it’s Cena going over via DQ on house shows and on Raw. Other times Cena teams with DX (Michales and Triple H) to take on Umaga and Rated RKO (Edge and Randy Orton). Those matches help us transition into a feud between Cena and Umaga, which culminates in a Last Man Standing match at the Royal Rumble on January 28. This was quite the different program than John was working with usually…and it brought out a different side of John didn’t it?

The Royal Rumble was up next on January 28. Cena retained his title against Umaga in a Last Man Standing match. The next night on Raw Dallas, TX, Cena and Shawn Michaels capture the Tag Team titles from Rated RKO.

When is the first time you remember the opponents-become-tag champs angle in the lead up to a big match? Why is it an angle you go back to?

If Hunter hadn’t blown out his quad - was this always the plan?

This sets up some added drama between Cena and Michaels because they are scheduled to compete for Cena’s WWE Title at WrestleMania that year. Cena retains the championship, then Michaels turns on him the next night on Raw, causing the team to lose the titles during a 10-team tag battle royal, eventually won by the Hardys. Cena retained the WWE Championship against Michaels, Orton, and Edge in a Fatal Four Way match on April 29 at Backlash.

John has had a ton of critics from this time say that because he was put in matches with top level talent they carried him to great matches - what say you?

Cena successfully defended the WWE Title from May until October of 2007: he became the first person to defeat the Great Khali (submission at Judgement Day on May 20 and pinfall at One Night Stand on June 3); in a Five Pack Challenge against Bobby Lashley, King Booker, Mick Foley, and Randy Orton at Vengeance on June 24; again against Lashley at the Great American Bash on July 22; against Randy Orton at SummerSlam on August 26; and again when Orton was disqualified during their match at Unforgiven on September 16. Was there ever any talk of these matches ending without John Cena being champion?

But then things take a turn. On the October 1 episode of Raw, Cena suffered a torn pectoral muscle while hip tossing Mr. Kennedy during a match. The surgery shortly thereafter revealed that John had completely torn his pectoral muscle off the bone. The North American Journal of Sports Physical Therapy recommends avoiding strenuous lifting for about 6 months after a pec surgery.

Bruce, talk us through that night on Raw from the moment John comes back through the curtain after his match with Mr. Kennedy. What was the protocol?

Obviously, John’s health is the most important thing. But you must almost immediately go into crisis mode thinking about how you’re going to handle your upcoming TV.

Once you knew John was going to be out, how did you develop the plan with Creative?

On ECW TV, we see Vince McMahon strip Cena of the WWE Title and award it to Randy Orton.

Bruce, we’ve seen moments like this before. Shawn Michaels relinquishing the title in 1997 comes to mind. Why have Cena stripped instead of having him forfeit it? I’m just curious, from a storytelling point of view, how do you decide to go with one method over the other?

Meltzer reported that:

“At first they thought it was an injured shoulder, but then the next day during a

visit to James Andrews they determined that he'd torn the pec. Cena had been the longest-reigning champion since Hulk Hogan in the 80s and he very much wanted to drop the belt in the ring at the PPV the following Sunday, but the doctor told him if he wanted it to heal right they had to do surgery immediately.”

Do you remember Cena having any issue with wanting to drop the belt in the ring?

What do you remember about Cena’s rehabilitation process? What is your communication with doctor’s during a recovery like this? Is WWE medical staff talking directly with the rehab specialists every day? Are you personally going to visit him or going out of your way to call him?

We’ve discussed Cena’s return in our No Way Out 2008 episode earlier this year so be sure to check that out!

Bruce - you only spent a few more months with John in the company and we will cover a lot of that in the next few months here, discussing Great American Bash 2008 next week, SummerSlam next month and your final pay-per-views with the company. How did you see John grow and change from becoming US champion to World Champion and quite frankly, carrying the company on his back?

Was John one of the easiest top guys you ever worked with?

How much do you enjoy seeing him in his one-off type things now for the company?