STW - The End Of Ken Shamrock In The WWF [Show Notes] (Patreon)

We are now continuing to finish our episode from last year…Ken Shamrock’s run at the end of 1998 ended off with him being a double champion as Intercontinental champion and tag team champion with Big Boss Man as one of the top heels in the Corporation…

Going into 1999 - did you think this was going to be the year Ken moved up in the company to being in the main event picture - or was the roster too crowded at the top at this point?

Ken & Boss Man drop the titles to Jeff Jarrett & Owen Hart on January 25th on Raw. You needed the tag titles on an actual tag team didn’t you? Why Jeff & Owen here and say not the Outlaws?

Out of nowhere - an attractive woman is sitting at ringside and Val Venis makes a pass at her. Ken comes racing down and attacks Val while Billy Gunn - who was feuding with Shamrock - comes out as well so it seems like a three person program was about to begin…

Before we go any further Bruce - where did the idea for Ryan Shamrock come from and what movie did Vince Russo watch to have this story begin?

Who was Ryan Shamrock - Alicia Webb - and how was she determined to be the person to play the role?

It was written in the great book - Shamrock: The World’s Most Dangerous Man by Jonathan Snowden - that this program would be the albatross that would sink his personal and professional life…any idea Ken was having any personal issues at this point?

Val would continue to go after Ryan as Ken would proclaim that his sister had no right to make her own decisions because he’s there to make her decisions for her. Vince Russo has said on record that he thought Ken Shamrock was the biggest waste the WWF ever had for missing on money with him - soooo why Ryan Shamrock?

Did you film Val’s “Saving Ryan’s Privates” movie?

Ken is working Gunn after the Rumble on all the house shows but the match for St. Valentine’s Day Massacre is Ken vs. Val with Billy Gunn as the special guest referee. Val gets the win after Billy hits Ken with a fast count. Why the title change here Bruce?

It is reported that Shamrock wasn’t exactly in the best health at the time with an illness - did that have anything to do with it?

Was this the real story of Ken during his time in the WWF - he’d start to get a push and then he’d come down with an injury - or were there any demons going on at the time?

Someone in the WWF really enjoyed the Ryan Shamrock story though as it was given a lot of TV time but there’s a weird change in the booking. Shamrock and Gunn had been programmed together for months at this point - but randomly Road Dogg beats Val Venis on television for the Intercontinental Title on the lead up to WrestleMania - so Dogg & Gunn end up switching spots essentially. Why the change here?

Ryan would eventually be dumped by Val, and then be involved with Goldust, so Mania is a 4-way for the IC title…and Shamrock & Venis are counted out while Dogg pins Goldust. Is this just…bro booking?

How much did Vince enjoy the Ryan Shamrock story?

Ken would have this to say, ““They wanted the angle to be that instead of me wanting to protect her, which is what they initially said it would be, that I really wanted to be with her,” Shamrock says. “Like, sexually be with her. They want me to actually pretend like I'm having sex with my sister. And I've got a son named Ryan Shamrock too. “I’m like, ‘um, this doesn't feel right.’ I said ‘I can't do that. I have kids and they got to go to school with their daddy wanting to have sex with his sister.’ Really?”

KEN’S SON WAS NAMED RYAN?!?! HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN BRUCE?

Was Ken’s unhappiness with the creative the reason why he began to fall down the card and lose his push?

I mean…I love him to death…but the Blue Meanie knocked him out on an episode of Raw. Not exactly top guy stuff is it?

Ken has said that he felt it from creative - do you think this is part of the reason Ken would eventually leave the WWF?

Vince loved the Ryan story so much it would transfer over to the feud between the Corporation and the Ministry of Darkness - and surprise surprise, the Ministry kidnaps Ryan while Shamrock is beaten up and ambushed. Ryan would eventually be…ahem…sacrificed on Undertaker’s…symbol…but the most infamous scene is when Stephanie McMahon is kidnapped and Shamrock goes on a search around the arena for Mr. McMahon…in his wrestling trunks. Come on Bruce - the visual of Ken looking for Stephanie in his little blue tights…just tickles me.

Wade Keller had this to say, ““When Ken Shamrock began asking people backstage if they had seen Stephanie, were we as viewers supposed to believe that the people backstage weren’t already aware that the boss’s daughter had been kidnapped? “Then when Ken Shamrock found out where Stephanie was, he was the only one to go looking for her in the basement? You would think Vince would have sent dozens of people down there immediately. Come on, the TV writing can be better than this. There are so many unnatural actions by so many parties that it’s almost impossible to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the show.”

Was it almost impossible to suspend disbelief and enjoy the show?

Eventually Shamrock would convince Christian to tell Ken where to find Stephanie and there she was in the basement. This would lead to Christian being crucified…I mean hung on Undertaker’s symbol. This is just what the Attitude Era was all about wasn’t it?

Shades of gray and all that jazz - here’s Shamrock being a babyface for the evil owner Vince - fighting with another evil guy in Undertaker. Hard to really get behind someone in this story…right?

At Backlash - Shamrock gets a big one-on-one match with the Undertaker - and Taker eats him up - taking a lot of the match - using all types of submissions on him - you know the Ultimate Fighter - before Shamrock finally works his way to catching Taker in the ankle lock. Bradshaw comes out for the save - Taker hits him with the Tombstone - 1-2-3. Bradshaw would choke Shamrock out afterwards with a baseball bat as well. Was this a message to Ken? Fall in line with the creative or this is what will happen?

The next night on Raw it’s Shamrock vs. Bradshaw - and Shamrock would tell this story about Bradshaw.

“"I'm in the ring working out with Steve Blackman, rolling around and tapping him out left and right,” Shamrock says. “Someone goes 'get in there Bradshaw, you could take them.' So I go, 'okay, I'll lay down, I'll let you grab your best hold and I'll submit you in less than a minute.' And so everybody goes 'oh, come on Bradshaw, do it.' So Bradshaw goes to the ring and he grabs a hold on me, and in 15 seconds I tapped him out."

Do you remember this? It’s not uncommon to see Bradshaw test someone right - but Shamrock?

Do you think they had any heat at any point in time?

The match between Shamrock & Bradshaw does not take place as the Acolytes end up destroying Ken before Test comes out for the save. Ken has saved and helped Stephanie so many times that on this Raw - when it comes time to her sacrifice - it’s not Ken that successfully saves her - but Stone Cold Steve Austin. Way to cut off the new babyfaces legs…

Speaking of cutting off someone’s legs…the next week…Union of People You Oughta Respect, Son…or U.P.Y.O.R.S…or just the Union is formed. Mankind is the leader with Vince McMahon backing him and the other members are Test, Big Show & Ken. This is in response to the Corporate Ministry having merged together…this is the dumbest shit ever isn’t it Bruce?

We know how the story goes - Vince reveals himself to be the Higher Power…everyone on the babyface side looks moronic because they believed Vince except Stone Cold…and the Union lasts all of 5 weeks…how big a miss is this?

It’s reported at the time that along with his on-screen persona falling apart his backstage persona were having issues as well. Ken started to date his on-screen sister Ryan in real life as his marriage was falling apart. When do you first hear of Ken dating Alicia Webb?

Was it hypocritical to date the real life person backstage while refusing to date her on screen - even though she’s portrayed as his sister?

Ken would have this to say, ““I was so much better than everyone else. The natural ability that was probably a curse because I was still able to go out and have fun and party. I'd still go in there and be much better than 90 percent of them in the ring. And people will go ‘that's good right?’ “But it's a curse, because if I would have slipped, if my performance had been going down, it might've made me wake up a little sooner. Like ‘whoa, I'm ruining myself here.’ But because I was able to maintain such a high caliber in the ring and still be able to still do all that partying, it just meant I was able to do it for a longer period of time.”

What say you to that, Bruce? Was Ken so much better than everyone else?

Ken would say during his time in the Union that he was pushed by creative on a regular basis to work with Chyna but he refused saying, “They wanted me to fight Chyna,” Shamrock says. “And they were going to have Chyna go over on me. I had no problem with that. Have her come in and punch me and cover me. But they wanted me to have a match. “I said 'I can't do that. I’ve taught my kids never to hit a girl.' And they kind of laughed. But I couldn't punch her and then go and tell my kids they shouldn't hit a girl.”

Is this just another sign of Ken being difficult? Do you remember the proposed Chyna - Shamrock story?

Was Vince looking at his contract - what he was making - and putting an effort into making Shamrock unhappy so he would want to move on?

Eventually there’s an on-screen issue with the two and Shamrock would belly-to-belly Chyna and choke her before walking away. So he was fine doing that but having a match…was out of bounds?

Of course…Shamrock would say because he refused to work with at the time Triple H’s girlfriend he would become a political enemy of his - and has even said that it was also because he would defeat Hunter on the road a lot when he first came in and that he held a grudge towards him. Bruce - did Hunter have issues with Ken?

Without Chyna to work with he moves on to wrestling Jeff Jarrett - which would include a match where Shamrock would beat Jarrett while he was in a strait-jacket. A strait-jacket Bruce?

He’s still getting quite the reaction on the show and he definitely feels different than a lot of other characters in the Attitude Era. Do you think his ability to draw was already gone by this point?

Well since he’s said no to WWF creative twice now - Shamrock enters a feud with the full of charisma Steve Blackman. Natural program between the two “martial artists” but - did anyone give a shit about Steve Blackman?

Are you trying to get some heat on Steve because you know Ken is unhappy and you gotta get someone over at his expense before he leaves?

Ken’s got his gym going on at the same time - the Lion’s Den - so his focus is split between the two. Jim Ross has told the story about how Ken was having issues making dates and being unreliable. Was this a pattern?

All of a sudden - in July of 1999 - Shamrock is on the UFC 21 talking about how he would be returning to fighting soon. Did you know this was going to happen? Did Vince?

Was this an addition by subtraction at this point?

Do you wish he had not announced that?

At the same time Ryan Shamrock is also cut by the WWF - do you think that had anything to do with Ken - or was it just time to move on from Alicia when she wouldn’t sign a contract as reported by the newsletters?

Was there any heat in the locker room towards Ken for announcing that on UFC pay-per-view when he still had WWF commitments left?

Ken has a flight issue just a few weeks later for a house show in Toronto and instead Edge is slotted into his spot for the IC title match against Jeff Jarrett - and Edge goes over! Do you remember this decision at the time and what you thought of it?

At Fully Loaded the next day Shamrock would defeat Blackman in a - well let’s call it what it was - a circle of cars parking lot match with Ken and Steve in the middle. This…this is not a home run is it Bruce?

Of course the next night what happens? You hit that motherfucker with a car…well Blackman hits him with a car…but then Shamrock returns later that night to lose to Hunter in the middle of the ring when the referee stops it for internal bleeding on Shamrock. Yup…no punishment here…

With Shamrock’s contract not expiring for months after he would go back to UFC…were there any ideas on co-promoting or having a financial interest in Ken with the UFC to get some of that money back? How do you think that would’ve gone?

Jim Ross would write this on his Ross Report: “Ken Shamrock will be decreasing his WWF schedule in 2000 to return to the martial arts and fighting world. Shamrock wants to compete in a few fights next year and will then possibly return to an active WWF schedule. WWF officials are fully supporting Ken’s efforts and may even explore the possibility of helping promote the World’s Most Dangerous Man in these pending fights.”

The plan all along was for Ken to return was it not? Or is this the WWF attempting to save face?

The blow off for Shamrock & Blackman will be at SummerSlam with a Lion’s Den match with weapons around the cage. What did you think of Shamrock & Blackman together in the ring?

Blackman starts going over Ken on house shows even though Shamrock beats him at SummerSlam. With the plan for Ken to return - you couldn’t have him lose to Blackman on the pay-per-view - but knowing what would eventually happen - do you wish you put Steve over instead?

Did you enjoy any of the Lion’s Den’s matches? What did you think of the concept?

Chris Jericho debuts in the WWF and before Shamrock leaves the arena on a SmackDown they bump into each other which leads to Shamrock chasing Jericho flunky Howard Finkel.

From Jericho’s book… “In his (Shamrock’s) mind, if he was supposed to chase me, he was going to chase me at full speed—and he did. I ran down the aisle and when he spotted me he charged as fast as he could. I knew if he caught me he would hurt me, so I took off down the aisle like Ben Johnson post water bottle swig. When we raced through the curtain out of the audience’s view, I slowed down but he didn’t and he tackled me as hard as he could in the hallway. “Ken, did you really need to tackle me? Nobody can even see you!” “I knew I could catch you,” he replied laconically. I have a feeling he would’ve chased me all the way to Yonkers until he did.

That’s just his mentality wasn’t it?

Ken Shamrock chasing Howard Finkel…was that a rib?

Jericho & Shamrock…oil meeting water wasn’t it?

You would have Mr. Hughes involved…Howard Finkel dressed in disguises…and with Ken not being great on the stick…Jericho made him look silly week after week and let’s be honest…he was checked out at this point wasn’t he?

On a Raw episode with a match between Shamrock and Hughes - Hughes - not exactly known as the best worker - gives Ken a shot - and Ken potatoes him back…and Ken would cut a promo on Hughes backstage as reported in the newsletters. Any memories of this?

Why was Curtis Hughes even here?

Then…at a house show…supposedly Shamrock takes a hard kick from him and aggravates his neck…so at SmackDown Jericho - in full hockey garb - causes him to cough up blood with a hockey stick to the gut - and that would be the end of Ken Shamrock in the WWF - without even putting Jericho over on the Unforgiven pay-per-view. Quite the end to Ken’s run…what can you tell us about the decision for Ken to walk away at this point without finishing the program?

Did you ever envision him never returning to the WWF?

How was it possible out of all the guys who have done so much - that he never, ever - made his way back into the company?

Was it ever close?

Do you think Ken is one of the biggest missed opportunities in WWF history?

Could we see him in the Hall of Fame one day - and do you think he deserves it?