Grilling JR - Brian Pillman [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Our topic today is Brian William Pillman, born May 22, 1962 would have been celebrating his 61st birthday this week if he was still with us.

JR - the story of Brian early on in his life built him to be the tough bastard he was later on. Born and raised in Cincinnati, OH, his father died of a heart attack at age 50 when Brian was only 3 months old.

As a child, Pillman developed throat cancer and underwent between 31 and 36 operations to tend to them, many before the age of three.

There’s not many that can compare to this man is there?

While attending Miami of Ohio University, Pillman played football as a defensive tackle where he set the record in the "tackles for loss" category. When you talk about a young man, undersized, able to do that…

He joined his hometown Cincinnati Bengals as a free agent (where he won the Ed Block Courage Award for his team), and later briefly for the Canadian Football League for the Calgary Stampeders in 1986. But his size held him back from playing professional is that correct?

Pillman remained in Calgary and started his pro wrestling career in Stampede Wrestling in 1986, training in Stu Hart’s dungeon and forming a tag team with Bruce Hart as “Bad Company.” When did you first hear of this dynamic young man?

After a few years working in Stampede and New Japan Pro Wrestling, Pillman joined WCW in the spring of 1989 and was given the name Flyin Brian. From the Observer:

Largely through making a contact with Jim Ross, he was brought into World Championship Wrestling in the spring of 1989.

JR - how did this come to be?

How do you get in contact with Brian to bring him in?

Did you have to “sell him” to anyone in the office?

From the Observer

He was supposed to start a few months earlier, with the original idea for him to be a heel managed by Paul E. Dangerously and team with Dennis Condrey as a new version of the Midnight Express. However, his job was nixed when new booker George Scott didn't want to bring in a wrestler that he had never heard of.

Do you remember George Scott killing this before it happened?

What do you think Dennis Condrey & Brian Pillman with Paul Heyman could’ve been as the new Midnight Express? Could they had been successful?

From the Observer

“Shortly after Scott was let go, Pillman's name resurfaced and he was brought in as a babyface with numerous musical videos. Pillman wrestled several television dark matches, but was very nervous and didn't perform well, and gained a reputation immediately for being far more green and inexperienced than he really was. But it probably worked in his favor, because once the butterflies wore off and he got his confidence back up, he started having good matches, and the belief was that he was improving at an amazing rate.”

Do you remember seeing these matches of Brian and giving him advice?

Was he doing too much too fast?

Did you think he had a ceiling to be a main event player?

The reputation of someone of his size at the time - good babyface - selling from underneath - add in his high flying - could he had been the next Ricky Morton in your mind?

Brian’s first major match with the company was at the 1989 Halloween Havoc show from Philadelphia where he had one of the best matches on the card against Lex Luger. It was reported that the assumption was that Luger would have to carry Brian because of the scope of the exposure…but it’s Brian who shows out on the show helping make Luger look like a million bucks. Brian got it early on didn’t he?

Brian wouldn’t find a consistent role in WCW - what do you blame that on?

He’s mostly a mid-card babyface - and one of the best workers in the company - but he was never comfortable in that spot was he?

Tom Zenk & Pillman would win the US Tag Team Titles in February 1990 as the heartthrob pretty boy babyface tag team…what did you think of those two together?

It’s also reported that he was the personal protege of Ric Flair, including a famous match on Saturday Night that drew the largest audience ever to watch that program on February 17th, 1990. What was the Pillman - Flair relationship like?

Go out of your way to find that match because it’s great. Any memories of watching these two go at it?

Could Pillman been on top with Ric at some point do you think?

Brian would turn into the Yellow Dog in 1991 after losing a Loser Leaves Town match to Barry Windham - JR can you explain what the Yellow Dog angle is and where it all comes from?

Does this gimmick hurt him do you think? Wrong timeframe?

In late 1991 & early 1992 - Pillman was having the best matches in the country against Jushin Liger…including a Christmas week house show run and a match of the year candidate at SuperBrawl in Milwaukee. These two were ahead of their time weren’t they?

Did you think this would usher in a new era of work or was it always going to be status quo?

These matches and his performance as Light Heavyweight Champion gets Kip Frey to give him a $225,000 contract for the next 3 years. That deal at the time - was considered - out of the norm was it not?

What was it about Kip that led to him handing out some of the deals - do you think he was doing things correctly?

It’s been said the instant Bill Watts came aboard - Pillman had a contract that had a bullseye on it. What did Bill think of Pillman? Was it Brian itself - or the deal?

Brian’s told he has to make a choice - take a pay cut or become the highest paid jobber in professional wrestling. Brian chose the cash over the creative did he not?

How did your relationship with Brian evolve before Watts came in - and then when Cowboy took over?

From the Observer

After a short period of being jobbed in the opener nearly every night despite being among the company's hottest workers at the time, with lots of internal pressure on him to cave in to Watts, he stood firm claiming he was going to become the highest paid opening match jobber in pro wrestling history until the situation of his jobbing and the reasons for it became an embarrassment for the company and both sides settled their problems in a solution that was largely face saving for both sides. In the wake of all the problems, Watts decided to drop the light heavyweight division.

How did it finally get all resolved - did Watts & Pillman meet in the middle on money?

Was it time to shelve the Light heavyweight division at this point?

Before you & Bill both exit the company - the Hollywood Blondes are formed with Brian & at the time “Stunning” Steve Austin. You could tell right away that this was magic couldn’t you?

From Stone Cold’s book:

That’s when we came up with the Hollywood Blonds idea. I think Raven came up with that name for us first. J.R. told me that in the early seventies there was another Hollywood Blonds tag team consisting of a veteran wrestler named Jerry Brown, who once swore he’d shoot “Cowboy” Bill Watts, and Buddy Roberts, who was to become known as a member of the Fabulous Freebirds. Those guys had some good heat going with the fans. J.R. thought we were a good update on that concept.

Do you remember talking with Brian & Steve about this? Were they frustrated by it? Did you try and give them some light at the end of the tunnel?

Just as you’re leaving WCW for the WWF the Blonds win the WCW tag team titles from Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas in Macon, Georgia. Did you keep in touch with Brian & Steve when you left?

Did you get to see any of their matches afterwards?

From the Observer

“Business went into the toilet during that summer, and when Ric Flair was signed back into WCW after leaving the WWF, a feud was put together with Pillman & Austin as the obnoxious young heels against Flair & Arn Anderson, building up to Flair's first match in WCW on a Clash of the Champions.

They did a hilarious parody of Flair's interview show, "A Flair for the Gold", with their own called "A Flair for the Old”.

When that Clash drew only a 2.6 rating, still the lowest Clash rating in history, the booking committee put the blame on Pillman & Austin being a failure as a heel team, a conclusion that almost nobody watching at the time would agree with, and broke them up, with Pillman being put back in a babyface role sans any push.

Do you wish you could’ve gotten to call them as a heel tag team - especially when they worked with Ric & Arn?

How silly is that looking back - that one sour rating - albeit for Flair’s return - and you break up Brian & Steve?

Is that just WCW in the early 90s - regardless of who was in charge?

Brian suffers a serious back injury and would find himself down for a lengthy amount of time. He’d bounce around various spots in WCW including having the first ever match on Monday Nitro against Jushin Liger before he would join the Horsemen and the Loose Cannon would be born.

From Eric Bischoff’s book:

Brian could be a very dark person to be around, depending on where his head was at, but he could also be a lot of fun. He had a great mind for the business. A lot of guys have a good imagination and can come up with ideas about how their characters can be used; only a select few can do that for other characters. Brian had that ability. He could look at other people and come up with ideas to enhance their character.

Brian came up with an idea for an angle where he would portray a character who might do just about anything at any moment, a character totally unpredictable, on the verge of snapping at any given moment, who might just be a little crazy.

I really liked the whole loose-cannon thing. It went directly to the philosophy of doing things differently and continually surprising the viewer.

Is that an accurate description of Brian?

What did you think of the gimmick itself? Between pulling the jacket off of Bobby Heenan at ringside causing him to scream what the fuck are you doing on TBS live, calling Kevin Sullivan bookerman on pay-per-view, and wrestling with a pencil on ECW TV…do you think the gimmick was years too early?

From Bischoff’s book:

In early 1996, we decided we would take his loose-cannon character as far as we could take it, up to the point of me releasing Brian.

He would go over to ECW and badmouth me and WCW. At some point, he would come back.

We were going to use it, and go further than anyone had ever gone before. People would really believe it was true. That was our agreement.

Wrestling being wrestling, I knew there was a possibility that I was being worked.

Releasing Brian let him sign a contract for more money at WWE; it also meant he might not come back. I was willing to take the risk, because if we could follow through on it, it would be a phenomenal storyline.

Do you think - from your conversations and contract negotiations with Brian - that Eric was in on this part of it?

From the Observer

He began negotiating with Vince McMahon, who initially was leery of dealing with him because Pillman, acting completely out of his mind, approached McMahon at the NATPE convention in Las Vegas. After assuring McMahon that everything he'd done was a work, and after Ross and Jim Cornette went to bat for Pillman since McMahon and everyone in wrestling had reservations about him because he was living his gimmick to a scary degree, McMahon decided to start serious negotiations.

JR - are at this convention? What do you remember of all this?

When do you & Cornette sit down with Vince and tell him about Pillman?

Did Vince see it was a work - did he believe it was a work - and to that extent - did you?

What was potential of Brian in the WWF at that point?

From Bischoff’s Book

Was I the one who was worked? After all, I’d let him out of his contract to go to the competition, where presumably he was paid more. Some people were definitely convinced I was.

I don’t think so, though the truth of the matter is, none of us will ever know who was working who. I wasn’t surprised that Brian signed with WWE. We’d already agreed to take it as far as it would go. Besides, it wasn’t a blow to us, because we were well on our way, with a tremendous amount of momentum.

All the while he was at ECW and WWE, Brian called me, and we would shoot the shit and talk. We weren’t good buddies or anything, but we would talk every six weeks or two months. In my mind, when we felt the time was right for him to come back, he would.

Is this Eric just saving face in your mind?

From the Observer

McMahon offered a guaranteed deal, believed to be only the third or fourth time in history he'd done such a thing, which caused Bischoff, who had low-balled earlier negotiations, to up his offer to the $400,000 range.

While Pillman was in the catbird seat, just a few days from becoming a real-life hot commodity free agent in the midst of a competitive Monday Night wrestling war, he was still going out of his mind, staying up all night, calling everyone and doing everything at all hours trying to get advice on how to play the game to make the most money.

Why was Brian offered a guaranteed deal? Was this your move and push? Or was this because of how the business was changing?

Did you think Brian would sign and return to WCW at any point in time with the negotiations?

Were you dealing with Brian or an agent?

From the Observer

Soon after purchasing a humvee, he apparently fell asleep at the wheel on 4/15, went off the road, and got thrown 40 feet into a field where he was lying in a pool of his own blood. His face was so swollen that his friends who visited him in the hospital really couldn't even recognize him. By the end of the week, after surgery which included taking bone from his hip to reconstruct his ankle, he was released from the hospital. Since Pillman had been orchestrating works on the entire world to keep himself the most talked about name inside the industry, many within wrestling thought this was simply the latest chapter of a bizarre work. But this was real.

Even though the future of his career in the ring looked questionable, neither Bischoff nor McMahon let up on the offer. Pillman claimed he'd been told he'd recover 100% from the injuries in a few months, although secretly he feared the worst.

Jim - when do you hear about the accident? Did you think it was a work?

Did it change anyone's mind on Brian’s deal?

Was Vince or yourself or anyone else worried about his injuries?

Did anyone check him out - have a doctor - physical - anything?

From the Observer

Eventually Pillman chose McMahon's offer largely because internally he thought there was no choice in the matter since Bischoff wouldn't eliminate the 90-day termination cycles from the contract, and Pillman, fearing the possibility of not being able to return to the ring, didn't want to risk his family's future on what was he believed could have turned into a short-term deal.

Do you believe that without the injury - he would’ve signed with WCW instead of the WWF and Bischoff not eliminating that clause was the deciding factor?

How excited are you for Brian to come into the WWF? He almost seemed like a perfect fit for what was about to happen in the WWF did he not?

From the Observer

WWF tried to make a big deal of Pillman's signing, rushing him onto television in a failed attempt to close the ratings gap. Although months from being able to wrestle, Pillman was running around the country constantly on airplanes trying to keep his gimmick strong while being unable to wrestle.

The WWF wanted to promote him - and the press conference with him bouncing around on his crutches screaming at everyone was a sign of things to come - but man he just wasn’t ready was he?

A few months later - due to Brian’s ankle not healing properly, doctors had to re-break the ankle and do another reconstructive surgery and fuse his ankle into a walking position. Was there any positive spin to this?

Was this a contract when the injury is found out that Vince regrets? “This is why we don’t sign guaranteed contracts, pal!” type thing?

The only good thing that comes from this is the amazing angle where Austin destroys Pillman’s ankle on Superstars after Pillman puts over the returning Bret Hart and would go on to “Pillmanize” his ankle which is now in the lexicon of professional wrestling. What was Austin & Pillman’s relationship like?

Do you think Brian was jealous of the rising star Austin was having while he’s stuck having to start over from scratch again with his ankle?

Did you notice any issues around this time with Brian or was it hard to separate what was real and what was a work?

How do you operate with a talent like that?

From the Observer

Just a few days after surgery, in a controversial desperate attempt to establish a new Raw time slot, the WWF did the infamous gun angle where Austin broke into Pillman's house in Walton, KY where Pillman was with his "bereaved" wife, Melanie, was held off by a pistol, and the satellite lost transmission as they teased that shots had been fired. Pillman was largely kept home for the next several months, until resurfacing doing the announcing on Shotgun to build for his in-ring return after Wrestlemania.

The gun angle - an all-time was something we discussed and watched back in the archives so be sure to check it out at GrillingJRonyoutube.com but this is the birth of the Attitude Era is it not?

You wrote this in your book:

“Brian and I broadcast some shows together while he was on crutches. He was exceptional, and I tried to sell him on the idea of being the next Jesse Ventura. He was smart, understood the business, sports, and politics; plus, he had a good look and a unique, raspy voice. No one would mistake him for anyone else. He could have had a gig for years.

But Brian resisted, hell-bent on being a wrestling star, as painful as it was for him to work.

Could this move in the long run had saved his life do you think?

When Brian returns he joins the Hart Foundation with Bret, Owen, Davey Boy & Jim Neidhart. This had to be a thrill for him did it not?

He continues on with the Loose Cannon gimmick as he prepares an in-ring return, but you had to think being alongside the likes of Bret & Owen that they would help keep him on the right path, right?

He mainly works 6 man tag matches until the epic Canadian Stampede in Bret’s hometown of Calgary where the Hart Foundation defeat Austin, Goldust, Ken Shamrock & the Legion of Doom in a 10-man tag team match that you have to go out of your way to see. Brian - a major heel - in this town with such a babyface reaction due to the Canada - USA storyline - cannot stop grinning ear to ear. Is this the last happy moment you remember of Brian’s?

The Goldust feud is his last program over Marlena. Pillman would lose to Goldust at SummerSlam which would force him to wear a dress for a month - but you can tell Brian is not the old Brian was he?

Pillman would defeat Goldust in a match where he gets Marlena for 30 days and the Loose Cannon XXX Files begin to be shown. We are way in on things that are sexual in nature at this point - Marlena & Brian together though could’ve been something couldn’t it?

When did you first start to notice issues? Around this time?

From your book:

Brian’s pain led him to some chemical shortcuts, and I got reports from agents at house shows that he was acting irrationally, curling up, and sleeping in the locker room. I even had wrestlers who were friends of his—and those were plentiful, because Brian was as likable a guy as you were going to find in the business—telling me something wasn’t right with him.

It was clear that he needed help, so I had a drug tester show up at a house show in the Pacific Northwest to administer a test for Brian.

Were these guys worried about their friend compared to ratting on him in hoping to get his spot type of thing?

Did you ever speak to anyone on the roster to check in on him - like Bret or Owen - or did you prefer to deal with it one-on-one?

How difficult is it to be the boss in this scenario?

From your book

Late that night, the phone rang at the little one-bedroom apartment Jan and I were renting in Stamford; it was Pillman, and he sounded violently mad. He shouted, “I can’t believe you’re doing this. I thought we were friends. There’s nothing wrong with me. I’m not taking any drugs!”

I just said, “Well, then when the test comes back clean, everyone will know you’re good.”

Regrettably, his urine didn’t back up his words.”

You knew the answer before the test even happened right?

What was going to be the result of the drug test failure, do you know? Suspension?

Could that had saved his life?

From the Observer

About five weeks before his death, Ross, who had remained close friends with him and had been counseling him several times per week regarding his problems, ordered him to undergo a drug test. He was furious about being singled out, since he had never gone on television so loaded he couldn't perform in or out of the ring as it is believed another top star had done one or two times in the recent weeks.

Melanie was also worried about the level of pain medication he'd been taking and her own knowledge of being close to and around wrestlers on-and-off for ten years that the wrestlers shared their prescription drugs back- and-forth and wanted him to undergo rehab, but he had a saying that he even wore on a t-shirt that rehab was for losers.

He refused and blamed being singled out to take the drug test on wreaking havoc with his marriage, and felt that when a wrestling company affects his marriage that he had to get out of the wrestling company.

This is just a deflection is it not?

From the Observer

Brian requested a release from the WWF, feeling he could go back to WCW and slide back into the final slot in the Four Horseman. His personal situation was rocky for a short period of time, which included him violating a restraining order and Melanie filing for a divorce. After a brief separation, he had returned home. He was pulled from the 10/3 house show in Winnipeg and from all Friday night house shows for the next few weeks because of a court- mandated Anger Management Class he had to take for violating the restraining order for four straight Saturday mornings, and went back on the road after the class for the matches in St. Paul for the final match of his career against Goldust.

Were you surprised he requested a release?

How did he take the anger management courses? Did he fight you tooth & nail on it?

Brian’s final WWF televised match came on the October 4, 1997 episode of Shotgun Saturday Night, defeating The Patriot by disqualification due to interference by Goldust.

JR’s book:

“We were in St. Louis getting ready for that night’s “Badd Blood” pay-per-view when we got the news about Brian Pillman’s passing. He had been found dead in his hotel room in Bloomington, Minnesota, where he had wrestled the previous night.”

This is dangerous to ask it this way - but you weren’t surprised were you?

Were you heartbroken?

Who contacted the family, yourself or Vince?

From the Observer

The In Your House Badd Blood PPV show went on, although not as scheduled. About 25 to 30 minutes of the show had been blocked off for Pillman matches with Dude Love and Goldust.

Talk me through that night in St. Louis. The locker room, the feeling, all of it.

How sad were you for Brian and his family?

Your role in talent relations - I’m assuming you dealt with a lot of the wrestlers that night - were they upset they couldn’t do more - that they lost their friend…

What was Austin’s & the Hart Foundation’s reaction? They were the closest to him were they not?

The next night and the WWF got a lot of heat for this. On Raw a live shot of Melanie Pillman is shown and teased throughout the night before Vince interviews her. This - all these years later - does not age well. But even that night - there had to be a feeling of - this shouldn’t be done right?

Who’s idea was this and why was this even done?

From the Observer

The only thing I'd like to say in defense of everyone involved, is that under the emotional state everyone was under, it would be cruel and heartless to be critical of the segment because it wasn't smooth flowing perfect television. But the segment left a lot of people very uneasy for many different reasons, not the least of which were all the teases and holding it off until late that made it come across as a way to build up ratings. She had a very heartfelt message, a warning for mainly those within the industry as to not let her husband's death, and for that matter similar deaths within the profession be in vain and use this as a lesson to be learned from everyone. She wanted her husband to best be remembered as the greatest father in the world and as a warm and compassionate person. We all knew abuse of painkillers among some wrestlers is out of control and the stories of erratic behavior that some find funny just aren't very funny today.

It is impossible to have pro wrestling, or for that matter pro football, pro basketball or anything of the type as we know it today without some form of painkillers. But there comes a line that everyone has to draw, and that's when the pain killers take over the body and simply aren't medication to heal the body. This was going to happen to someone in the business, and whomever it would be, the odds were that it would be somebody's husband and somebody's father. As it turned out, it was Melanie Pillman's husband and the father of their five, soon to be six, children.

The industry was a ticking time bomb for years before and years after before it really cleaned itself up - and there’s been a line of Eddie Guerrero died trying to be a main eventer. Does that ring true for Brian Pillman as well?

From your book

Vince and I flew to Cincinnati to see his family, as we both wanted to pay our respects. We visited his wake which was a little more convivial than your typical memorial service, with stories and memories of Brian being shared. They had the casket open and it hurt me deeply to see Brian lying there. The part I found the hardest about running the talent department was keeping a distance from the wrestlers. I got too close to some of the guys and, when tragedy struck, it was like losing a family member.

Brian Pillman had been like a little brother to me, a mischievous kid.

And despite his image as a wild man, Brian was not using drugs, in my opinion, for recreational purposes; he was taking the medication to help him heal from that awful accident, but it was medication that still was against company policy.”

Looking back - was that one of the hardest things you had to deal with?

Do you think Brian could’ve stayed with the company and flourished with heeding your advice or was this the inevitable?

What do you think Brian’s reaction would’ve been to the Screwjob on Bret just a month later?

Brian was built to be a major part of 1998 - with Bret leaving and Austin rising and Steve needing new heels - they could’ve absolutely been main eventers for many months couldn’t they? Would’ve drawn a lot of money right?

What is Brian’s legacy in the business - and to you?

What’s the ceiling on Brian’s son - Brian Jr - in AEW and in the business?