83 Weeks - AEW Collision + Four Horsemen [Show Notes] (Patreon)

AEW Collision announced.

CM Punk rumors.

Eric we’re going to be discussing one of the greatest stables in professional wrestling history, The Four Horsemen. We’re discussing this today because just a few months ago you said the Four Horsemen never drew and you set the internet on fire. We’re going to dive into that and the history of the group that you’ve been around for.

But first let’s go back to the beginning, In 1985 the Horsemen are formed with the NWA World Champion Ric Flair, NWA TV champion Tully Blanchard and the NWA World Tag Team Champions Ole & Arn Anderson with JJ Dillon at their side. They’re are the most dominant force in professional wrestling as a group. This is the group all stables from here on out are based on - are they not?

Without the Four Horsemen - there’s no Heenan Family, nWo, DX, Evolution, Bloodline - would you agree with that statement?

When do you - in your fandom - remember seeing the Horsemen for the first time? Which incarnation?

Do you think if you had been watching JCP in 1985 and watch the rise of the Horsemen and the stories they were able to tell you would appreciate them more?

Is it possible that this is the type of thing that would eventually lead to the issues with Flair, not being able to embrace the legacy of this type of thing?

One of the biggest years Flair ever had was after the Horsemen had been disbanded when Arn & Tully left for the WWF and JJ Dillon would eventually follow suit to become a front office member. But it feels like whenever there was a dip in business in WCW from this point forward - they always went back to the Horsemen. Why do you think that was?

We have touched briefly on 83 Weeks about a lot of the Horsemen members and their various roles but Ole Anderson is someone we haven’t discussed in a long time. He was involved creatively for a long time in WCW with you - was he a proponent of the Horsemen reforming over and over again and the various people it would bring into the group?

In May of 1993 when Flair returns to the company there’s an attempt to put another group together called the Horsemen. It’s Flair, Arn, Ole as a manager and Paul Roma. Now you’re involved in the TV side of things in 1993 - not creative right?

What did you think of Paul Roma being put into the group to become a new young star?

Well I can tell you what Ric thought…from his book:

“Meanwhile, Dusty Rhodes became the booker again. One of his first acts was regrouping the Four Horsemen—with myself and Arn and Ole and Paul Roma. Basically, Paul had been a very lower-tier guy in the World Wrestling Federation who’d gotten a moderate push there, In my opinion, he also had a shitty work ethic, once leaving an opponent waiting in the ring so he could finish up a game of cards. As soon as Roma’s name was announced in Atlanta, the Omni went silent. “It never ends,” I thought. “Here’s Dusty screwing with me again.”

What was the Dusty - Flair relationship like back then? Was it tenuous?

The rumor and innuendo at the time was that Tully was to also be part of the group but the money was too far apart. Do you remember hearing that at the time?

Do you think Tully needed to be in the group?

What was your experience working with Roma?

Roma famously said in the 2007 WWE produced Four Horsemen documentary, “Ric Flair wanted to be me, but never could.” That’s the silliest shit ever isn’t it Eric?

This incarnation of the Horsemen never works. Ole is on TV for very little of it, you’ll see Flair & Arn team up against the Hollywood Blondes, Arn & Roma team up, and really they’re babyfaces. Was there more to to do with the Horsemen name at this time?

Was it just rushed because Flair was returning and Dusty didn’t know what to do with him besides go back to the Horsemen gimmick?

The Horsemen gimmick ends when Sid & Arn have their stabbing incident in England, Roma begins to team with Paul Orndorff as Pretty Wonderful and Flair is on his own. This is in fact a mercy killing for the group is it not?

10 years after the first Starrcde in 1983 was the hottest ticket in town, WCW charged an $8 bottom price for Starrcade 93 and the Charlotte Coliseum almost sells out with 7,000 paying $65,000 as Flair saves the company again because of Sid and wins the WCW World Title from Vader in a match where Ric would have to retire if he lost. $65,000 was the highest gross of the year for the company. It is this event and all the circumstances around it that lead to you recruiting Hulk Hogan into the company is it not?

Was it always Flair pushing for the Horsemen to be reformed? Arn? Or was it always the bookers that went back to it?

Do you think by the end of 1993 when it fails miserably and never even gets a real fourth member - it was a dead concept?

We all know the story. Hulk comes into the company, eats up Flair, becomes World Champion, retires Ric and then Ric has to make this silly comeback just a few months later while Hulk is fueding with Vader. Is this where you think your relationship with Ric started to deteriorate?

After Bash at the Beach 1995 where Hogan defeats Vader in a steel cage match - which we will be covering in all its goodness later this year - Flair comes in and lambasts Vader. Vader attacks and Arn comes in for the save. This is going to begin a months long storyline to reform the Horsemen. Why go back to the group Eric?

Vader defeats Flair & Arn at Clash of the Champions in a handicap match - not the best showing for them and it begins to have Flair & Arn at odds with each other. Flair blames Arn for the loss while Arn fights back that he’s tired of doing the dirty work of Flair for all these years. At Fall Brawl Arn even defeats Flair one-on-one, albeit with some help from Brian Pillman. Do you think there could’ve been more with Flair & Arn on opposite sides?

The rumor and innuendo at the time was that there were to be two Horsemen groups, the originals with Flair & Arn fueding with the New Horsemen of the Apocalypse of Brian Pillman & Chris Benoit. Do you remember ever that being the plan?

Flair would beg Sting to become his tag team partner and that he needs help against Arn & Pillman and Sting does what Sting always did back then, get suckered in. At Halloween Havoc Sting makes the hot tag to Flair, Flair struts in and nails Sting with a right hand and all is right in the world again with Flair & Arn together and the Horsemen are back. This is great stuff but they always did manage to make Sting look gullible didn’t they?

Was it the launch of Nitro that led to the Horsemen being reformed?

Eventually Chris Benoit is added to the whole group and it’s Flair, Arn, Pillman & Benoit. Why Chris here? What was the fit?

Woman returns and becomes a manager which is a whole thing eventually, and it feels like WCW has the Horsemen as the top heel group with Dungeon of Doom - yes that’s a real sentence - and working with all the top babyfaces, Hogan, Savage, Sting & Lex Luger. It would even add Miss Elizabeth when she turns on Savage at Superbrawl during his match with Flair.

That Superbrawl is most well known for the infamous Brian Pillman & Kevin Sullivan worked shoot that was a work or a shoot depending upon who you talked to - as Pillman’s new Loose Cannon gimmick was being pushed. What did the likes of Arn & Ric think of the gimmick for Brian?

Do you know if they thought it overshadowed the group?

Flair would regain the WCW Title that night from Savage and would again be on top of the company…and the next night on Nitro Arn would defeat Hulk after Miss Elizabeth’s high heel is put into Hogan’s eye. If the Horsemen didn’t draw Eric - they sure as shit were pushed to be draws weren’t they?

Some point to Uncensored as the real end of the Horsemen’s ability to draw money. I’d point to a Nitro in Chattanooga in March though as something that’s undersold in the legacy of things. It is the first time Hulk Hogan is loudly booed during a promo and it almost seems like he’s shook. Is that your first time hearing it while on Nitro?

In the main event of that show Hogan & Savage team up and go to a no contest with Flair & Kevin Sullivan in a Texas Tornado Match. This isn’t very Horsemen like to be joining with the Dungeon of Doom - and I point out that the Hogan booing thing would lead to eventually his heel turn and the nWo - but it’s the Horsemen getting cheers while Hogan getting boos. That was not the plan was it?

Flair is on the house shows and they’re starting to come around. Shows that a year before were drawing anywhere from 700-1500 now were drawing 1800-3200 fans with Flair working on top with Sting & Savage depending upon the night. Was Flair still a draw at this point?

The Horsemen & Dungeon of Doom join forces as… THE ALLIANCE TO END HULKAMANIA. It’s a Tower of Doom Steel Cage Match where the likes of Z Gangsta (Zeus), the Ultimate Solution appear, Hogan & Savage fight through Lex Luger, Kevin Sullivan, the Barbarian, Meng, and eventually Arn & Flair. This is the most non Horsemen thing ever isn’t it?

Of course - with all that main event talent surrounding the Horsemen - Flair is the one who eats the pin from Randy Savage - when the babyfaces could’ve just left the cage to get the win - Savage comes back to make sure he gets the pin on Ric. I mean Eric, what are we doing here?

This would turn into the Horsemen & Dungeon of Doom pairing off each other as Pillman exists the company, Benoit takes his spot in his feud with Sullivan and man does that not end well for anyone, and Flair randomly drops the WCW Title to Giant on Nitro in late April. Who gave up on them because that’s what it feels like here?

With Pillman gone there’s another gap in the group and it’s filled at Great American Bash, as Flair & Arn team up to take on Kevin Greene & Nitro commentator Steve McMichael. Eventually Mongo opens the haliburton handed to him by his wife Debra, with money & a Horsemen shirt inside, turns on Greene and the Horsemen are back at full strength. Did anybody have an issue with putting Mongo in the group?

This is a question I’ve always wanted to ask and no one has ever given me a straight answer on it - did you have to ask Ric & Arn who they wanted in the group?

Was that ever a consideration?

Were they more protective of who was in the group after what happened with the likes of Paul Roma?

Do you know of anyone who was ever pitched for the group that were told they were not - and this is a famous phrase - “Horsemen material?”

The nWo comes along in July and really kills the momentum of the Horsemen as the whole roster is turned babyface. Flair & Arn are teaming with the likes of Sting & Luger in War Games at Fall Brawl and coming up short as the nWo steamrolls through the company. The epic Horsemen vs. nWo story never really gets going. Do you think that could’ve been something where you had months of the Horsemen defending the WCW legacy against Hogan, Nash, Hall & Syxx?

Flair is hurt, Arn is hurt, and in October Jeff Jarrett joins the company and is immediately associated with the group. Do you consider Jeff a Horsemen?

With Arn’s career wrapping up due to his injury there is a hole and it needs to be filled but the Jarrett flirting with the Horsemen story is too long and convoluted and it’s just an awful mess. Was it too much to just put him in the group and then have them kick him out? Was it too cute?

Flair would write this in his book: “““Personally, I thought we blew away the nWo. Arn could talk better than those guys. Mongo was a marginal performer, but he had a million-dollar look to go along with his Super Bowl ring. To the fans, we all were tough, believable guys. The only problem was that Arn could no longer continue as an active wrestler.”

Was that the issue? Arn’s injury?

We have discussed in great detail the infamous Arn Anderson retirement speech in length many times, so please check that out in the archives. We’ve covered it from every angle - but this is the true end of the Horsemen as a “money drawing” entity. Curt Hennig accepts Arn’s proposal to become a Horsemen, the parody the next week, nWo kills the group at Fall Brawl when Hennig turns and smashes a steel cage door into his head. That was it right?

Ric would write this:

“Less than a month after the emotional night when Arn handed over his spot, Hennig turned on the Horsemen, slamming my head in the cage door and joining the nWo. The match took place in the heart of Horsemen territory—Winston Salem, North Carolina—and basically killed the city for WCW. For the second year in a row, the Horsemen lost War Games in their own backyard. In terms of storyline, the turn and result didn’t make sense. The only motive seemed to be burying me.

The plot continued, with Hennig stealing my robe, tearing off the sleeves, and awarding it to Hogan. Forget the fact that I had paid $5,500 for the robe and wasn’t reimbursed. When it was handed to Hogan, the fan outrage transferred over to him. In other words, it wasn’t Curt’s storyline anymore. Hogan stole it.”

Was the goal to bury Ric?

The Horsemen are dormant for a long time - loosely associated are Benoit & McMichael but Flair is out on his own working with the likes of Bret Hart until the contract impasse takes place and all the legal wrangling takes place between you & WCW against Flair & his attorneys. Did you ever imagine the Horsemen being back on TV?

Eventually it all gets worked out - and then one of the most memorable moments in TV wrestling history, as the Horsemen are reformed with Arn Anderson introducing the members of the group including a new addition of Dean Malenko. What did you think of having Dean in the Horsemen?

Arn eventually introduces Flair back on TV on September 14th in Greenville. From the Observer:

“The reason Ric Flair's return to World Championship Wrestling on the 9/14 Nitro in Greenville, SC exceeded everyone's imagination is because there was nothing ever in wrestling to compare it with. If there was ever any one moment that firmly established who the greatest performer of modern time, if not all-time was, it was not the huge initial pop, but when the deafening roar wouldn't stop. He may not be the greatest athlete who ever stepped in the ring, although he is a great athlete. He may not be the greatest drawing card, although he is a great drawing card. He may not have been in the greatest match of all-time, although he probably was in more great ones than whoever numbers two, three and four on the list are combined. He may not be the all-time greatest

interview although he very well might be, but at his motivated best, nobody can touch him. And for people who admit to Flair as being a great worker, but not a superstar in the industry on the level of others who had more mainstream notoriety or that he's past the point due to age of being marketed as a top star, well, the earthquake sounding reverberations heard round the country on 9/14 must have been quite a jolt of reality.”

That night made it all seem like the time away from TV, the build to it, the Horsemen were back and better than ever…did it not?

That Nitro would be the second to last time it would ever defeat Raw in the ratings and the only other time it would defeat Raw was when Goldberg vs. DDP was replayed on free TV after the Halloween Havoc snafu…so Eric when you say the Horsemen never drew - what do you say to that?

You working against Flair in the build up to Starrcade 98 was the last great program Ric was in in WCW. How comfortable were you wrestling him? Did you ever think or fear that something would happen after all that had transpired?

The night after Starrcade you lose to Flair - of course you beat him the night before on pay-per-view at the show that Flair made famous - just pointing that out - for Flair to have control over the company for 30 days. This story is completely forgotten about in history because on January 4th of 1999 the Finger Poke of Doom takes place.

But it does lead to the last successful pay-per-view WCW would ever run. Uncensored 1999 in Louisville at Freedom Hall where Flair turns heel in a steel cage first blood match against WCW Champion Hulk Hogan and with help of referee Charles Robinson becomes WCW Champion while earlier in the night Benoit & Malenko won the WCW Tag Team Titles with the help of Arn Anderson. The Horsemen ride again…

Although within weeks McMichael’s time in the company ends, Flair is losing by DQ in the main event of Nitro to Rey Mysterio, and would drop the title to DDP at Spring Stampede.

This would lead to Flair becoming a nutjob, needing a personal nurse named Asya to come in, put David Flair as US Champion which has Benoit & Malenko leave in May in protest over Ric was doing…and joins Shane Douglas’ Revolution group - effectively ending the Horsemen. It’s a sad end to a once great stable - but Eric - back to the original crux of our story - why do you think the Horsemen never drew money?

Do you blame the talent - or the creative?

What is the Four Horsemen’s legacy in this sport do you think?